Prodigal baserunners – players who seldom come home

39 Comments

1. 1
   John Autin says:

   November 28, 2012 at 10:34 am

   List 1 is virtually all older and/or notoriously slow players, with two notable exceptions: Jose Oquendo ’88, and Reggie Jackson ’70.

   Oquendo ’88 batted 6th and 7th on a Cardinals team that ranked next-to-last in scoring, and last by miles in HRs and SLG. He also had no extra-base power (.350 SLG, .073 ISO) and no SB prowess (4 for 10). And in that year, he did poorly at taking an extra base on teammates’ hits.

   As for Reggie ’70 — For one thing, he took himself out with a league-high 17 CS. He had his best OBP while batting 6th (about 1/3 of his PAs), and while Oakland’s #7 hitters were good, their #8 were awful, and #9 was the pitcher. (BTW, their #9 out-slugged their #8 — I’ll bet you don’t see that a lot on a non-DH team!)

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   • 2
     Richard Chester says:

     November 28, 2012 at 11:00 am

     Led by Wes Ferrell the #9 hitters on the 1931 Indians out-slugged the #8 hitters by .348 to .345. Pitchers on that team always batted 9th.

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   • 24
     JW Lewis says:

     November 29, 2012 at 8:16 am

     At least Jose has that cool number range in the “Pos” box, all 9 positions represented.

     Isn’t there some way it could just read “All” ?

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   • 31
     Voomo Zanzibar says:

     November 29, 2012 at 3:33 pm

     They had 6 homers from pitchers out of the 9 hole.
     And 7 from position players, including two from Reggie.

     http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/split_stats_team.cgi?full=1&params=lineu|Batting%209th|OAK|1970|bat|AB|

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     • 32
       Voomo Zanzibar says:

       November 29, 2012 at 3:38 pm

       Tony LaRussa and Dave Duncan accounted for a 1/4 of those 8 hole PA’s
       And Duncan slugged .471

       http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/split_stats_team.cgi?full=1&params=lineu|Batting%208th|OAK|1970|bat|AB|

       Reply
   • 33
     Richard Chester says:

     November 29, 2012 at 4:28 pm

     On the 1957 KC A’s the #9 hitters out-slugged the #8 hitters by .289 to .271. For the first 56 games of the year their pitchers batted in the #8 position. Infielders Joe DeMaestri, Billy Hunter and Milt Graff were so bad they were relegated to the #9 position. By eye-balling it looks to me that if those three had hit in the #8 hole all season then the #8 hitters would have out-slugged the #9 hitters.

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     • 35
       Ed says:

       November 29, 2012 at 5:30 pm

       DeMaestri actually made the all-star team in ’57 which says a lot. Also pitcher Mickey McDermott had an .872 OPS in 58 PAs. That was higher than any of the position players on the As. In fact, McDermott was often used as a pinch hitter that year.

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     • 38
       Doug says:

       November 29, 2012 at 6:35 pm

       Not sure exactly what this means, but DeMaestri is the only player with a 3000+ career PAs, a career OPS under 0.600, but a slugging percentage 35%+ higher than his batting average.

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       • 39
         Ed says:

         November 29, 2012 at 7:03 pm

         Doug – Of the 34 players who meet the first two conditions, DeMaestri has the highest career slugging percentage (.325) so it kind of makes sense that he would be the only player to meet the 3rd condition.

         Reply
2. 3
   Lawrence Azrin says:

   November 28, 2012 at 2:46 pm

   At first I was surprised to not see Ernie “The Schnozz” Lombardi on the first list, as he was legendary as one of the slowest MLB runners ever. Then, I saw the requirement of 502 PA, which Lombardi met only one season.

   HOWEVER – up till the mid-50s, the PA requirement for the batting title was only 400 PA. Using this standard, along with a .350+ OBA and a TDI of 35 or less, he qualifies in 1932, 1936, and 1945.

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   • 34
     Hartvig says:

     November 29, 2012 at 5:19 pm

     Another player that I thought I might see on the first list and was amazed that I did not see in the decade breakdowns was the immortal and notoriously slow afoot Willie Mays Aikens. What made it doubly surprising was that his replacement, Steve Balboni, was number 2 on the list for the 80′s.

     While it’s true that Balboni is very well known for doing very little except hitting home runs and was terrible at getting on base and Aikens was a more well rounded hitter it’s still more than a little surprising. They were both used is much the same way hitting mostly in the 4 thru 7 slot but Aikens had a higher percentage of his AB’s in the 5th or lower spot. The early 80 KC teams were a little better than the late 80 ones but most of that was pitching.

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     • 36
       Doug says:

       November 29, 2012 at 6:18 pm

       Aikens didn’t make the decade lists because he had less than 3000 PAs in his career. For his career, his TDI% was 20.7%, so he definitely would have been near the top of the decade list with a few more PAs (Aikens had 2856 for his career, and 2308 in the 1980s).

       His 33 TDI in 1982 would have made list #1 with a few more points on his 0.345 OBP. Also, his 26 TDI in 1983 was just outside the cutoff for list #2 (although Aikens missed the PA requirement for that season). In 1984, Aikens had just 10 TDI in a half-season (265 PA), so he was on pace to join Cardenas and Molina in the under-20 TDI club.

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3. 4
   Doug says:

   November 28, 2012 at 4:26 pm

   Lawrence @ 3,

   Lombardi ranked 2nd lowest for the decade of the 1930s in TDI percent.

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   • 6
     Lawrence Azrin says:

     November 28, 2012 at 5:49 pm

     Doug,

     Yes, I saw “The Schnozz” on the 1930s decade list, but I was referring to the first list, of seasonal TDI less than 35.

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     • 37
       Doug says:

       November 29, 2012 at 6:28 pm

       Lombardi had 502 PA just once, in his MVP season in 1938. His TDI that year was 41.

       In his 8 seasons over 400 PA, Lombardi had TDI totals ranging from 23 (twice) to a high of 36.

       Reply
4. 5
   Doug says:

   November 28, 2012 at 4:51 pm

   JA @ 1,

   Good thoughts about RJ and Oquendo.

   My question: what was a 47 HR hitter doing hitting anywhere but 3rd or 4th (or maybe 5th)?

   On a similar vein, curious that two Yankee mainstays (and HOFers) make the list for worst TDI for the 1930s. Tough to figure that one.

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5. 7
   Richard Chester says:

   November 28, 2012 at 6:23 pm

   Part of the reason for low run totals for Dickey and Lazzeri lies in the fact that they both hit mainly in the lower part of the batting order, the overwhelming majority of their PA came in the fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth spots. Not many good hitters left to drive them home.

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   • 9
     Doug says:

     November 28, 2012 at 6:47 pm

     Yes, but you could say the same of any team. It’s just curious to me that the highest scoring team of the decade would have its bottom-of-the-order guys here.

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     • 16
       John Autin says:

       November 28, 2012 at 10:19 pm

       Re: Bill Dickey and the Yankees, it’s not just the bottom of the order that would depress his TDI. They often had crappy hitters at the #1 and/or #2 slots, as well. Consider 1941:

       The ’41 Yanks were #2 in the AL with 5.32 R/G. Dickey, hitting 6th and 7th all year (at the tail end of his career), had a .371 OBP but scored just 35 Runs in 397 PAs.

       Their #8 hitters were OK for that era, but they had no power — just 4 HRs, 21 doubles. Then the pitcher, and then the execrable leadoff men: .242 BA, .291 OBP, .313 SLG.

       With nobody hitting any XBH behind him, and Dickey probably running about as well as most old catchers, it’s strictly station-to-station. And with a couple of dead spots in a row, the chain gets broken pretty easily.

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     • 18
       John Autin says:

       November 28, 2012 at 10:47 pm

       Take the 1927 Yankees — one of the greatest offensive teams ever at 6.30 R/G.

       Their #1-2-3-4 hitters scored 143, 138, 163 and 149 Runs. Their #5-6 hitters, collectively the league’s best, dropped off to 93 and 92 Runs. But the #7 spot — even with a surprisingly good #8 behind them (and a fantastic leadoff spot) — scored just 66 Runs.

       That’s an extreme case, but the general shape is typical of a lineup with a pitcher hitting 9th, especially in an era of hierarchical orders.

       In the 1927 AL, cleanup men scored 837 runs (the top 4 spots averaged 848). #5 men scored 655, almost 1/4 less than the man ahead of them. And #7 scored 517 runs, just 61% of the top 4 average.

       Modern orders are a little more spread out, but still, in the NL last year, #6 men scored only 69% as much as #3 men.

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       • 20
         Richard Chester says:

         November 29, 2012 at 12:08 am

         If you randomly select a given year for any team or any league and go to the splits for Batting Order Position the trend is the same. The top four batters score the most runs, both on an absolute basis and a percentage basis, and then there is a rapid drop-off for the rest of the batting order whether it’s the 1968 ML or the 1930 ML or it’s the 1927 Yankees or the 1935 Braves.

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         • 22
           Doug says:

           November 29, 2012 at 1:46 am

           I guess that’s my original point in comment #9, when I said that this would be true of just about every team. Thus, it struck me as odd that two Yankees would show up in the lowest 20, given that the Yankees in that decade scored far more runs than anybody else (15% more than Detroit, who were 2nd; 30% more than median). Of course, those extra runs the Yankees scored (including by their bottom hitters) means those bottom hitters are getting more PAs than bottom hitters on other teams, so that could also be part of the answer.

           Incidentally, it’s a testimony to the Yankees’ dominance that their bottom hitters scored about as frequently as the Braves’ cleanup man (see poor Wally Berger also on the list).

           My guess is that lesser teams would tend to have more fluid batting orders, so 3000 PAs for players on those teams is likely to include a variety of batting order positions. Also, guys at the bottom of the order on weaker teams are more likely to be fringe players (as opposed to HOFers) who likely won’t compile 3000 PAs in a decade.
6. 8
   bstar says:

   November 28, 2012 at 6:36 pm

   My jaw dropped when I saw Leo Cardenas’ 1972 runs scored and TDI totals. What was going on that year with him? First, the perspective: Not only is Leo the only player in history with 600+ PA and 25 runs scored or less, there is no one in history with 500+ PA and 25 runs or less either. You have to go back to 1917 to find Chuck Ward, who scored 25 runs for the Pirates in 483 PA.

   Cardenas batted sixth or seventh for the Angels that year but also saw time in the second and third spots in the order. The Angels were last in the league in scoring at 2.93 R/G and were tied for last in HRs. The #8 hitter that year was the catcher duo of Art Kusyner/Jeff Torborg, both of whom had an OPS+ under 70.

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   • 10
     Doug says:

     November 28, 2012 at 7:06 pm

     Those Angel teams really scuffled. They had zero batters with .400 SLG in 400+ PAs in 1966, 1969, 1971 and 1976 (they had one such batter in 1968, 1972 and 1975). In the rest of MLB in that 11-year period (1966-76), there were only 7 other such seasons without a .400 SLG/400 PA batter.

     From 1977 to 2009, outside of strike seasons, there were only two such years, the 1985 Pirates and 1992 Angels. But, there have been 4 such seasons since 2010, most recently by the 2012 Astros.

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     • 12
       bstar says:

       November 28, 2012 at 7:38 pm

       Amazing that the Angels were 75-80 in 1972. Doug, do you know what was up with the game totals in 1972? I can’t remember what happened. Everybody in MLB that year played 153-156 games instead of 162. A work stoppage I was unaware of? It looks to me like they started the season a week or ten days late.

       Reply
       • 13
         Mike L says:

         November 28, 2012 at 7:44 pm

         A work stoppage. The first Marvin Miller moment. They struck over pension contributions, and the union won some concessions after the cancellation of 86 games.

         Reply
         • 14
           bstar says:

           November 28, 2012 at 9:48 pm

           RIP Marvin Miller. Appreciate the response, Mike.
       • 17
         John Autin says:

         November 28, 2012 at 10:31 pm

         And because the ’72 schedule did not get rebalanced, my Tigers were able to cop the division flag by half a game over Boston.

         Detroit went into a final 3-game set with the BoSox trailing by a half-game, but took the first 2 behind Lolich & Fryman (another all-time great stretch-drive pick-ups) to clinch the title.

         In his last 10 games that year, Al Kaline went 21-41 with 4 HRs and a 1.401 OPS, and he had the go-ahead hit in the 7th inning of the clincher, off El Tiante.

         Ah, memories…

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         • 27
           Jason Z says:

           November 29, 2012 at 10:50 am

           Didn’t see your response.

           Your point about the schedule not
           being rebalanced made me wonder
           if the split season format of 1981,
           was a direct response to the 72 AL East
           result.
       • 26
         Jason Z says:

         November 29, 2012 at 10:45 am

         A look at the old AL East for that season
         reveals that Detroit won the division at
         86-70.

         Boston finished second at 85-70.

         Reply
   • 11
     Doug says:

     November 28, 2012 at 7:19 pm

     bstar,

     Here’s a couple more seasons of note. Only other times scoring 30 or fewer runs in 502 PAs, both with SLG lower than OBP.

     Player	HR	R	PA	Year	Age	Tm	H	RBI	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	Pos
     Fred Kendall	2	30	505	1976	27	SDP	112	39	36	42	.246	.302	.296	.598	*2
     Earl Sheely	1	30	586	1931	38	BSN	147	77	34	21	.273	.319	.314	.633	*3

     Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
     Generated 11/28/2012.

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   • 25
     John Autin says:

     November 29, 2012 at 10:35 am

     Cardenas ’72 had the 5th-worst rate of Runs per PA of any modern player with 100+ games, and had by far the most games and PAs of anyone in the neighborhood.

     Rate-wise, Bill Bergen stands alone (of course). But Clay Dalrymple, Phillies catcher of the ’60s, owns two of those bottom 5 rates.

     Position-wise, Cardenas is the only one of those bottom 5 who was not a catcher.

     Reply
7. 15
   RJ says:

   November 28, 2012 at 9:50 pm

   I was surprised Paul Konerko didn’t make the first list, although he does sneak into the 2000s table. Konerko has 38 and 40 TDI the last two seasons.

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8. 19
   David says:

   November 29, 2012 at 12:01 am

   The TDI formula here would count a run where batter hit safely and scored on an error in the same at-bat, no? Possibly some of these TDI totals could be less accounting for such. Or just rename TDI to more accurately reflect the calculation like Times Scoring Without Homering.

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   • 21
     Doug says:

     November 29, 2012 at 1:24 am

     You’re right, David. A more correct name would be as you have indicated.

     Also, TOB does not include times reaching base on a fielder’s choice. But, it does include (of course) times reaching base and then being erased on a fielder’s choice. So, it’s not completely exact but it’s probably not far off the true number.

     Reply
9. 23
   Greg says:

   November 29, 2012 at 5:43 am

   Some say that late at night, when the stadium is empty and everyone has gone home, Wes and Tommy Helms roam the basepaths endlessly, waiting for someone to come break their family’s curse.

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10. 28
    Richard Chester says:

    November 29, 2012 at 10:57 am

    Interesting that Ted Williams appears on a list of under-performers.

    Reply
11. 29
    Doug says:

    November 29, 2012 at 1:35 pm

    Richard, it was those 1950s Red Sox teams who were the under-performers. Williams inclusion is similar to Wally Berger in the 1930s for the lowly Braves. They make the list mostly because they get on base so much.

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    • 30
      Ed says:

      November 29, 2012 at 3:27 pm

      In a five year period (’54-’58), Ted Williams had four seasons in which he had 502+ PAs, an OPS greater than 1.000, and fewer than 100 RBIs and runs scored. Pretty remarkable considering there are only 20 such seasons in the entire history of baseball (Tris Speaker is the only other player with multiple such seasons).

      Reply