Say it ain’t so, Roy

Roy HalladayRoy Halladay is struggling. Last season was definitely below par. But, observers were inclined to give Halladay the benefit of the doubt and ascribe his performance to injury and never getting back into rhythm after his return to the lineup. The trouble with that assessment of 2012 is that, rather than rounding into form as the season wound down, Halladay was headed the other direction.

But, “2013 is a new year” went the refrain. With rest and a renewed sense of purpose, it would be the same old Roy again. Except, Halladay had a rough spring with whispers that his old velocity just isn’t there. So far this season, the search party is still looking for the old Roy.

Is this the end of Halladay as the dominant staff ace? Say it ain’t so, Roy!

To consider the significance of Halladay’s decline since his age 34 season in 2011, I’ve identified the control group below of pitchers since 1893 with 2300-2700 IP, 125-151 ERA+ through their age 34 seasons.

Rk Player ERA+ IP From To Age G GS CG SHO W L W-L% BB SO ERA HR Tm
1 Lefty Grove 144 2510.1 1925 1934 25-34 424 279 184 20 203 87 .700 772 1566 3.04 89 PHA-BOS
2 Addie Joss 142 2327.0 1902 1910 22-30 286 260 234 45 160 97 .623 364 920 1.89 19 CLE
3 Carl Hubbell 140 2655.2 1928 1937 25-34 389 312 201 32 192 102 .653 498 1258 2.79 144 NYG
4 Roy Halladay 138 2531.0 1998 2011 21-34 378 352 66 20 188 92 .671 520 1934 3.23 206 TOR-PHI
5 Whitey Ford 133 2564.1 1950 1963 21-34 393 350 133 34 199 78 .718 946 1558 2.78 186 NYY
6 Sandy Koufax 131 2324.1 1955 1966 19-30 397 314 137 40 165 87 .655 817 2396 2.76 204 BRO-LAD
7 Red Faber 129 2411.1 1914 1923 25-34 360 281 183 23 165 111 .598 697 983 2.66 52 CHW
8 Mike Mussina 129 2668.2 1991 2003 22-34 386 386 53 21 199 110 .644 597 2126 3.53 278 BAL-NYY
9 Stan Coveleski 129 2523.1 1912 1924 22-34 365 307 196 32 174 124 .584 620 865 2.81 53 PHA-CLE
10 Joe McGinnity 128 2605.1 1899 1905 28-34 336 290 252 21 190 105 .644 646 788 2.68 37 BLN-BRO-BLA-TOT-NYG
11 Warren Spahn 127 2678.2 1942 1955 21-34 375 334 205 34 183 124 .596 808 1394 2.98 191 BSN-MLN
12 Kevin Brown 127 2430.2 1986 1999 21-34 349 347 66 16 157 108 .592 683 1701 3.27 140 TEX-BAL-FLA-SDP-LAD
13 Lefty Gomez 125 2503.0 1930 1943 21-34 368 320 173 28 189 102 .649 1095 1468 3.34 138 NYY-WSH
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 4/9/2013.

Not a bad group. Not the greatest pitchers in the history of the game but certainly a good group with a healthy does of HOFers.

First off, what did this group do for the rest of their careers?

Rk Player ERA+ From To Age G GS CG SHO W L W-L% IP BB SO ERA HR Tm
1 Lefty Grove 155 1935 1941 35-41 192 178 114 15 97 54 .642 1430.1 415 700 3.10 73 BOS
2 Whitey Ford 134 1964 1967 35-38 105 88 23 11 37 28 .569 606.0 140 398 2.58 42 NYY
3 Kevin Brown 127 2000 2005 35-40 137 129 6 1 54 36 .600 825.2 218 696 3.30 68 LAD-NYY
4 Stan Coveleski 123 1925 1928 35-38 85 78 28 6 41 18 .695 558.2 182 116 3.27 13 WSH-NYY
5 Warren Spahn 110 1956 1965 35-44 375 331 177 29 180 121 .598 2565.0 626 1189 3.20 243 MLN-TOT
6 Red Faber 109 1924 1933 35-44 309 202 90 6 89 102 .466 1675.1 516 488 3.85 59 CHW
7 Mike Mussina 107 2004 2008 35-39 151 150 4 2 71 43 .623 894.0 188 687 4.14 98 NYY
8 Carl Hubbell 106 1938 1943 35-40 146 121 59 4 61 52 .540 934.2 227 419 3.51 83 NYG
9 Joe McGinnity 97 1906 1908 35-37 129 91 62 11 56 37 .602 836.0 166 280 2.59 15 NYG
10 Roy Halladay 81 2012 2013 35-36 27 27 0 0 11 10 .524 163.2 42 144 4.95 21 PHI
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 4/9/2013.

Right away, three pitchers (Koufax, Gomez and Joss) fall off but all of the rest had at least 550+ IP over 3+ seasons after age 34. While the ERA+ performance of the group declined (as would be expected), some actually improved their ERA+ and all of them (save Halladay) gave a good account of themselves, pitching at or close to average levels, ranging up to well above average for Whitey and Lefty.

So, this is probably a good sign for Halladay – he’s struggled and he has been injured, but the control group would suggest that that is something he is likely to overcome.

Delving a bit deeper, how often have these pitchers had a season after age 34 like Halladay’s in 2012. I’ll look for a season of 125 to 175 IP with ERA+ below 100.

Rk Yrs From To Age
1 Carl Hubbell 3 1939 1942 36-39 Ind. Seasons
2 Lefty Grove 3 1938 1941 38-41 Ind. Seasons
3 Mike Mussina 2 2004 2007 35-38 Ind. Seasons
4 Red Faber 2 1924 1930 35-41 Ind. Seasons
5 Roy Halladay 1 2012 2012 35-35 Ind. Seasons
6 Kevin Brown 1 2004 2004 39-39 Ind. Seasons
7 Warren Spahn 1 1964 1964 43-43 Ind. Seasons
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 4/9/2013.

So, 7 of the 10 pitchers did have such a season and 4 of the 10 had more than one. And, Halladay has some company with two others (Mussina and Faber) also recording a season like his at age 35. That being said, it is noteworthy that 3 of the 10 pitchers in the group never had such a season (McGinnity, Ford, Coveleski) and 3 others didn’t have one until at least age 38 (Grove, Brown, Spahn).

What about complete games? Here’s what the control group did through age 34 with number of seasons of 5 or more complete games.

Rk Yrs From To Age
1 Whitey Ford 12 1950 1963 21-34 Ind. Seasons
2 Warren Spahn 10 1946 1955 25-34 Ind. Seasons
3 Lefty Gomez 10 1931 1941 22-32 Ind. Seasons
4 Carl Hubbell 10 1928 1937 25-34 Ind. Seasons
5 Lefty Grove 10 1925 1934 25-34 Ind. Seasons
6 Red Faber 10 1914 1923 25-34 Ind. Seasons
7 Sandy Koufax 9 1958 1966 22-30 Ind. Seasons
8 Stan Coveleski 9 1916 1924 26-34 Ind. Seasons
9 Addie Joss 9 1902 1910 22-30 Ind. Seasons
10 Kevin Brown 8 1989 1999 24-34 Ind. Seasons
11 Roy Halladay 7 2003 2011 26-34 Ind. Seasons
12 Joe McGinnity 5 1901 1905 30-34 Ind. Seasons
13 Mike Mussina 3 1992 2000 23-31 Ind. Seasons
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 4/10/2013.

Halladay has a very creditable result here given his context and the drastic decline in complete games from earlier eras. For age 35 and older, here’s what the group did for seasons without a complete game.

Rk Yrs From To Age
1 Kevin Brown 4 2002 2005 37-40 Ind. Seasons
2 Mike Mussina 2 2007 2008 38-39 Ind. Seasons
3 Red Faber 2 1932 1933 43-44 Ind. Seasons
4 Roy Halladay 1 2012 2012 35-35 Ind. Seasons
5 Whitey Ford 1 1966 1966 37-37 Ind. Seasons
6 Stan Coveleski 1 1927 1927 37-37 Ind. Seasons
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 4/10/2013.

Thus, Halladay is the only member of the group with a season without a complete game at age 35 or 36.

So, that’s the control group. What about Halladay’s own performance? Has he had spells in his career when the wheels have gotten a bit creaky? Here’s his career in a box.

Year Age Tm W L W-L% ERA G GS CG SHO IP HR BB SO ERA+ WHIP BB/9 SO/9 SO/BB
1998 21 TOR 1 0 1.000 1.93 2 2 1 0 14.0 2 2 13 245 0.786 1.3 8.4 6.50
1999 22 TOR 8 7 .533 3.92 36 18 1 1 149.1 19 79 82 125 1.574 4.8 4.9 1.04
2000 23 TOR 4 7 .364 10.64 19 13 0 0 67.2 14 42 44 48 2.202 5.6 5.9 1.05
2001 24 TOR 5 3 .625 3.16 17 16 1 1 105.1 3 25 96 145 1.158 2.1 8.2 3.84
2002 25 TOR 19 7 .731 2.93 34 34 2 1 239.1 10 62 168 157 1.191 2.3 6.3 2.71
2003 26 TOR 22 7 .759 3.25 36 36 9 2 266.0 26 32 204 145 1.071 1.1 6.9 6.38
2004 27 TOR 8 8 .500 4.20 21 21 1 1 133.0 13 39 95 115 1.346 2.6 6.4 2.44
2005 28 TOR 12 4 .750 2.41 19 19 5 2 141.2 11 18 108 185 0.960 1.1 6.9 6.00
2006 29 TOR 16 5 .762 3.19 32 32 4 0 220.0 19 34 132 143 1.100 1.4 5.4 3.88
2007 30 TOR 16 7 .696 3.71 31 31 7 1 225.1 15 48 139 121 1.243 1.9 5.6 2.90
2008 31 TOR 20 11 .645 2.78 34 33 9 2 246.0 18 39 206 152 1.053 1.4 7.5 5.28
2009 32 TOR 17 10 .630 2.79 32 32 9 4 239.0 22 35 208 159 1.126 1.3 7.8 5.94
2010 33 PHI 21 10 .677 2.44 33 33 9 4 250.2 24 30 219 167 1.041 1.1 7.9 7.30
2011 34 PHI 19 6 .760 2.35 32 32 8 1 233.2 10 35 220 163 1.040 1.3 8.5 6.29
2012 35 PHI 11 8 .579 4.49 25 25 0 0 156.1 18 36 132 89 1.222 2.1 7.6 3.67
2013 36 PHI 0 2 .000 14.73 2 2 0 0 7.1 3 6 12 28 2.455 7.4 14.7 2.00
16 Yrs 199 102 .661 3.34 405 379 66 20 2694.2 227 562 2078 133 1.175 1.9 6.9 3.70
162 Game Avg. 17 9 .661 3.34 35 33 6 2 234 20 49 180 133 1.175 1.9 6.9 3.70
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 4/10/2013.

Halladay burst into prominence as a 22 year-old rookie in 1999, posting a 125 ERA+ in 149.1 IP. He regressed over the next season and was demoted to the minors from whence he returned only in mid-season 2001. The first month after that return was not great, with a 5,40 ERA, but Halladay cut that in half and more with a 2.46 mark over the final two months of the season, for a 145 ERA+ overall. He was on his way.

Halladay had an outstanding 2002 season of 19-7, 157 ERA+ while leading the league in IP. The next season was Halladay’s first CYA year with 22-7, 145 while again leading in IP, and also in CG and SHO.

Halladay’s 2004 and 2005 seasons were both cut short by injury, though Halladay’s performance remained stellar with a combined 20-12, 142 ERA+ for those seasons. After that, Halladay turned in 6 straight campaigns of at least 220 IP and 121 ERA+, registering a collective 109-49, 149 while leading 5 times in CG, 3 times in shutouts, twice in IP and once in ERA+, culminating in a second CYA selection in 2010.

The verdict: 2012 would appear to be the first time since 2000 that Halladay has turned in sub-par performance over the course of a season, whether interrupted by injury or not.

So, what about getting in a rut during the season and then coming out of it? Has that been a common characteristic during Halladay’s career? Let’s look at his current streak of consecutive starts of 4 IP or less.

Rk Strk Start End Games W L GS CG SHO IP H R ER BB SO HR ERA Tm
1 2004-07-16 2004-09-27 3 0 2 3 0 0 11.0 15 10 10 6 6 4 8.18 TOR
2 2013-04-03 2013-04-08 2 0 2 2 0 0 7.1 12 12 12 6 12 3 14.73 PHI
3 2000-07-21 2000-09-23 2 0 1 2 0 0 6.1 14 11 11 2 5 4 15.63 TOR
4 1999-04-24 1999-04-29 2 0 1 2 0 0 6.1 14 15 11 7 3 2 15.63 TOR
5 2012-09-22 2012-09-22 1 0 1 1 0 0 1.2 5 7 7 3 3 1 37.80 PHI
6 2012-05-27 2012-05-27 1 0 1 1 0 0 2.0 4 4 4 1 0 1 18.00 PHI
7 2011-07-18 2011-07-18 1 0 1 1 0 0 4.0 7 3 3 1 1 1 6.75 PHI
8 2009-06-12 2009-06-12 1 0 0 1 0 0 3.0 5 1 1 0 0 0 3.00 TOR
9 2007-06-05 2007-06-05 1 0 0 1 0 0 3.1 12 8 7 1 1 2 18.90 TOR
10 2006-09-20 2006-09-20 1 0 0 1 0 0 3.1 3 1 1 1 1 0 2.70 TOR
11 2006-09-10 2006-09-10 1 0 0 1 0 0 0.2 2 0 0 0 0 0 0.00 TOR
12 2005-07-08 2005-07-08 1 0 0 1 0 0 2.2 6 3 2 0 4 2 6.75 TOR
13 2003-08-17 2003-08-17 1 0 1 1 0 0 3.0 10 7 5 1 3 0 15.00 TOR
14 2001-09-08 2001-09-08 1 0 1 1 0 0 4.0 4 1 1 0 3 0 2.25 TOR
15 2000-06-30 2000-06-30 1 0 1 1 0 0 2.2 4 7 7 4 1 1 23.63 TOR
16 2000-05-05 2000-05-05 1 0 0 1 0 0 3.2 9 8 8 6 4 1 19.64 TOR
17 2000-04-25 2000-04-25 1 0 1 1 0 0 4.0 8 9 9 5 2 1 20.25 TOR
18 2000-04-15 2000-04-15 1 0 1 1 0 0 4.0 9 5 5 2 1 2 11.25 TOR
19 1999-05-09 1999-05-09 1 0 0 1 0 0 2.0 8 4 4 3 1 0 18.00 TOR
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 4/10/2013.

In a word, no! Hardly a rut to be found. Kind of takes your breath away to think that Halladay has a grand total of 24 starts in his career of 4 IP or less, including the two to start this season. The 2004 streak included the game in which he was injured and his first two starts after coming back from that injury. The 2000 “streak” was two starts separated by two months. So, really, 2013 is the first time since early in his rookie year of 1999 that Halladay has had back-to-back starts of 4 IP or less, absent extenuating circumstances.

I mentioned at the top that, far from rounding into form after his return to the lineup in 2012, Halladay was headed the other way. From his return to the lineup in mid-July to the end of August, Halladay posted a 4.06 ERA. But, in September that ballooned to 6.84 with only one start of 7+ IP.

With that finish to 2012, Halladay is currently riding the longest streak of his career for starts of 5 IP or less (four), and the longest streak since 2001 for starts of 6 IP or less (five).

Roy Halladay justly has a large following of admirers (including yours truly) who are hopeful that he can find his dominant form again. But, he’s into uncharted territory with his current funk. However it turns out for Roy, here’s a tip of the hat to a consummate pro, and an early congratulations on win number 200!

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mosc
mosc
11 years ago

I think the fastball velocity is not very relevant as much as people point to it. It’s almost by rule that the guys you linked to above all had declining fastball velocity as they age but many as you pointed out continued to succeed. Halladay in particular has great movement on his pitches, notably great movement on his fastball (2SFSB and CUT varieties). He depended on straight gas for his first stint before being sent back down. Since he’s come up and been the dominant pitcher we have known it’s been about movement, particularly fastball movement. If you’ve watched either… Read more »

mosc
mosc
11 years ago
Reply to  mosc

Maybe because Pettite is a lefty we’re not processing the success he’s had in recent years despite the regan-era fastball velocity? Pettite’s command is as good as ever which may be helped with his abandoning the pursuit of velocity altogether. His main pitch now is a cutter against right handed batters that continues to miss barrels. He’s a better pitcher throwing an 87MPH cutter than he was when his 4SFSB touched 95. There’s probably a whole discussion to be had on the relative importance of movement vs velocity but I think you can succeed at the highest levels with either.… Read more »

brp
brp
11 years ago
Reply to  mosc

Wouldn’t you think Halladay would have already tried to make all these adjustments over the course of last season as he struggled, and in the off-season? He’s always been much more of a pitcher than a thrower, so I’m not sure what more he can do.

I agree that the walk rate has to drop, but is he trying to pitch around hitters because he doesn’t have “it”? If he’s pitching scared, then he’s done.

mosc
mosc
11 years ago
Reply to  brp

Grr. I almost said something nasty. There are some pitchers who disregard location where there catcher sets up routinely, but Halladay is not one of them. In other words, you can see how bad he’s missing on his fastball. Could it be some mental thing? Certainly. But I don’t think he’s mentally trying to throw further away from the middle of the plate if that’s what you mean. He can’t throw his cutter away to right handed batters or keep it in the strike zone against left handed batters. His 2 seamer is dropping low, and when either pitch misses… Read more »

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago

Very timely work, Doug. My heart says that Halladay is smart enough to adjust and make the most of what he has left, and become good again (not great). The historical data, though, are unsentimental. To complement your work, I looked at pitchers who (a) were good over ages 30-34 (regardless of prior years), and (b) were mediocre or worse at 35. Then I looked at their seasons from age 36 onward. Specifically … The base group is those since 1893 with 20+ WAR for ages 30-34. There are 70 such pitchers, excluding Halladay. (He’d rank 9th in that group… Read more »

Ed
Ed
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

John – I remember you, Bstar and I had a somewhat heated discussion about Halladay last offsesason. If I remember correctly, Bstar and I both expected Halladay to keep on keeping on. You were a lot more skeptical. So far it seems like you were right….

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  Doug

No pre-emption, Doug. I just got very inspired by your piece.

wx
wx
11 years ago

Given that Halladay has a reputation as a control pitcher, would it be a terrible idea to scan the list for similar pitchers in that regard? If we do that, the best comparison is Mussina. Mussina’s counting stats are a little higher but that’s due to the slight innings difference. It’s basically the same 4:1 K:BB ratio. The main difference is ERA+, which I would imagine can be attributed to the home runs

no statistician but
no statistician but
11 years ago

Am I over-interpreting, or is there a fear that Holliday’s record as it stands is somehow insufficient for serious HOF consideration?

Actually, I think that’s a valid fear, so I hope he turns it around and puts up another 40 Ws or so minimum, even at the cost of lowering his interpretive stats. Those high WAR years won’t impress the voters positively half so much as ‘only’ 199 Ws will negatively.

But what if he is played out? Will that tarnish the record he’s built or diminish the career he’s had?

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago

I’m on record as saying Halladay’s a mortal lock for the Hall if he never wins another game.

Objectively, it’s a no-brainer. So we turn to what the voters will think.

Halladay is exactly the kind of pitcher people mean when they talk about whether someone “seemed like a Hall of Famer at the time.”

He has the added hook of a signature stat, the CG — he has more of those (and more shutouts) than any pitcher this century.

Add in his three 20-win seasons and .661 winning percentage, I think he has all the voters’ bases covered.

no statistician but
no statistician but
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

JA:

If you’re right, the best thing he could do would be to walk—himself, not more batters. You have more faith in the HOF voters than I. The backlog of worthy candidates is my concern as much as the dubious interpretive skills and idio(t)syncrasies of those who mark the ballot.

As I’ve stated here before, I think the Hall is a goner, in terms of doing what it is supposed to do. Not to start another wrangle on that subject.

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago

I’m still curious about pitchers with Halladay’s exact value pattern, including a sharp drop at age 35. But due to his elite performance at age 33-34, it’s very tough to form a similar control group who also fell off at 35. Halladay at 34 had the 3rd-best WAR for that age since 1893, trailing only Cy Young and Roger Clemens, tied with Bob Gibson’s 2nd Cy Young. His 8.3 WAR at 33 ranks 11th all-time. His 17.2 WAR for 33-34 combined ranks 5th. Only 46 others had even 9+ WAR for those ages. Anyway, I took those 47 pitchers and… Read more »

mosc
mosc
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Certainly there are other pitchers who were injured substantially during their age 35 season. Maybe instead of looking for pitchers as good as Halladay was (a very small set), you’re looking for guys who pitched after an age 35 injury to see how close to career norms they returned?

I still say all this is moot. The sample size is too small and the eras these guys played in is too different. Halladay’s “stuff” is fine. If you think it’s not, you’re crazy. His control, in 2 starts, was horrible. Liriano horrible. Actually that may be an insult to Liriano.