Circle of Greats 1941 Round Runoff

Pete Rose and Nolan Ryan each appeared on exactly 26 of 58 ballots in the 1941 round of the Circle of Greats (COG) voting, just ahead of Jim Palmer, who appeared on 23 ballots.   To resolve the tie between Rose and Ryan, this post opens a runoff vote.  Unlike ordinary COG rounds, your ballots in this runoff should include one name, instead of the usual three names.  And unlike in ordinary rounds, where you have many choices of who to vote for, here you are choosing only between the two guys, Pete Rose and Nolan Ryan.  As always, feel free to explain why you are choosing who you are choosing, or if you merely prefer to state your choice without further explanation, that’s fine too.  

One thing Rose and Ryan have in common is the sheer amount of major league baseball they each played.

Most Plate Appearances by a Batter in MLB History, Regular Season and Post-Season Combined:
1. Pete Rose 16,191
2. Carl Yastrzemski 14,068
3. Hank Aaron 14,015
4. Rickey Henderson 13,608
5. Ty Cobb 13,153

Most MLB Batters Faced by a Pitcher Since 1900, Regular Season and Post-Season Combined:
1. Walter Johnson 23,617
2. Nolan Ryan 22,801
3. Phil Niekro 22,740
4. Steve Carlton 22,112
5. Don Sutton 22,038

The player who receives the most votes in this runoff will be inducted into the Circle of Greats.  The loser in this vote may or may not also be inducted, based on the voting in the 1940 Part 1 round which will be going on at the same time.  If the loser is not inducted via the 1940 Part 1 voting, he will go back into the usual list of holdovers for the 1940 Part 2 voting next week.

All voting for this runoff round closes at 11:00 PM EST EDT on Friday, November 8, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:00 PM EST EDT Wednesday, November 6.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this runoff vote here: COG 1941 Runoff Vote Tally.  I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes.  Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.

In order to avoid a second tie, the following rule will apply to this runoff vote: If the result of this runoff would be a tie as of the vote closing on Friday night, November 8, the tie will be broken by reverting to the vote count as it stood immediately prior to the final vote that was cast before the vote closing time.      

 

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Mike
Mike
10 years ago

Pete Rose. Both sustained a very high level of play for a very long time, but Rose was a great lead off hitter. Ryan was wild, but his knockout of Robin Ventua, even w/Bo Jackson waiting in the wings, almost got him there.

mosc
mosc
10 years ago
Reply to  Mike

I still view that fight as Ventura wanting to charge the mound, realizing about half way there that he’s charging a fossil, and deciding in order to not embarrass him, he’ll go over there anyway putting his head down and take his beating like a man. Ryan, being old and not seeing the complete lack of offense on Ventura’s part as a dis just starts wailing on him. Ventura is embarrassed not because he couldn’t beat up an old guy but because he almost hit an old guy. Totally different. To this day he has to humor Ryan by even… Read more »

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
10 years ago

Ryan was a singular talent, possibly the most intimidating pitcher ever. He struck out everybody, didn’t give up hits, and walked… everybody.

Rose was a singular personality, possibly the most aggressive player ever. He struck out rarely, got hits all the time, and walked… occasionally. Rose didn’t have a ton of power and he wasn’t a great defender at any of the positions he played, but he didn’t have one glaring (on-field) weakness in his game the way Ryan did.

Pete Rose

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago

I’m going with Rose. I get all the reasons people aren’t voting for him. I just think that, since I’ve been going with on-field performance so far, I’ll continue to do so as we move on. And I’m kind of excited that we finally get to do the runoff thing!

aweb
aweb
10 years ago

Ryan. The players are close, but I think Ryan’s skills and abilities are just more appealing to me. Too bad pitch f/x didn’t exist in his prime…

GrandyMan
GrandyMan
10 years ago

Rose. Personal issues aside, he gave 110% all the time, and I greatly respect him for this

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
10 years ago

Pete Rose – a better peak than Ryan

I also believe that keeping Rose on the HOF ineligible list is fully justified. Hypocritical? Maybe.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago

Nolan Ryan, one vote

wx
wx
10 years ago

Nolan Ryan. Apparently there’s a limit on minimum response length?

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago

I’m not trying to jinx anything… but let’s say these two finish in a tie. THEN what?

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

HA! You need to actually include that in the rules somewhere. Best idea ever.

mosc
mosc
10 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

No I think that’s actually a pretty good way to deal with it. In a runoff tie, the last vote doesn’t count. Sounds very fair to me.

RJ
RJ
10 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

I’ve another idea. In the event of a second tie, Joe Carter is automatically elected in their stead.

Chris C
Chris C
10 years ago

Perhaps my two least favorite players of all time. Having this extra ballot for the two of them makes my skin crawl.

I’ll vote for Ryan as he was never banned from baseball.

The Diamond King
The Diamond King
10 years ago

Pete Rose. Tough Call.

RJ
RJ
10 years ago

Pete Rose vs Nolan Ryan, regular season:

91 PA, 71 AB
19 singles, 2 doubles, 0 triples, 0 homers
19 BB
1 SF
5 RBI
0.296/0.440/0.324/0.764

RJ
RJ
10 years ago
Reply to  RJ

That slash line again, for better readability: .296/.440/.324/.764

koma
koma
10 years ago

Pete Rose, he deserves it.

Bix
Bix
10 years ago

Pete Rose. And apparently saying “Pete Rose” and nothing else is too short a comment.

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago

A Rose by any other name would smell as….ah, maybe not.

Anyway: I vote for Rose.

donburgh
donburgh
10 years ago

Pete Rose, although I have no problem with him being banned from the HoF.

--bill
--bill
10 years ago

I echo Chris C.’s comment at #10.

I vote for Ryan.

J.R.
J.R.
10 years ago

Nolan Ryan, because he played for my Mets. For about 6 minutes.

MJ
MJ
10 years ago

Nolan Ryan. He became a better pitcher as he got older, while Rose hung on way too long and hurt his candidacy as a result.

jajacob
jajacob
10 years ago

Ryan Express is too short as well

brp
brp
10 years ago

Pete Rose, warts and all.

bstar
10 years ago

I really appreciate long careers, and I will happily cast more votes for Nolan Ryan in the future, but I’m going Charlie Hustle on this one.

Pete Rose.

Josh
Josh
10 years ago

Pete Rose, gotta be Pete Rose

JEV
JEV
10 years ago

Pete Rose gets my vote again.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
10 years ago

I wrote yesterday at mind-dulling length on the 1941 CoG post about why I felt that Rose’s violation of the no-betting rule should not have resulted in a lifetime ban or rule him out of the CoG. I’ll repeat only the bottom line: Rose broke an important rule, but his specific act was otherwise not unethical, as opposed to the act it is associated with – throwing games – which is so unethical and threatening to baseball integrity that it is appropriately punished with a lifetime ban. Rose acted like a dumb jerk (in character), but he was a rule-breaker,… Read more »

Mike L
Mike L
10 years ago

Ryan. I previously objected to Rose for gambling reasons, and that logic still applies. And I blame myself for this, because in voting for Mel Stottlemyre, I did not vote for Ryan the first time out. So much for shout-outs to a boyhood hero.

bells
bells
10 years ago
Reply to  Mike L

I guess that’s the beauty of this runoff, is that any of us can blame ourselves for being in this situation. As the second last voter, I took the whole freakin’ week trying to figure out who I preferred between those two, and I couldn’t do it so I picked them both (although the runoff is kinda cool so I’m glad it’s happening). I guess it’s a good thing I have another week to do so now…

Doug
Editor
10 years ago

Both played forever. Both have almost identical career WAR totals (Ryan – 83.8, Rose -79.4). But, Ryan has a decent edge in WAA, 22% more than Rose with 35.2 to 28.9. I’m going to vote for Ryan because of that WAA edge and because he remained valuable to his team pretty much throughout his entire career. Breaking their career WAR/WAA approx. into quarters (by IP and PA) Ryan – 22.8/9.6, 20.4/8.9, 18.0/5.6, 22.6/11.1 Rose – 23.7/9.5, 30.8/19.8, 26.3/13.3, -1.3/-13.6 I highlighted the last quarter of Rose’s career. I’m not blaming him for hanging on; if the club is willing to… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug: Your comment seems antithetical to mine at #32 below, but I think you are way off base in laying such stress on the final quarter of their careers. As you say, they both played a long time, and for the first .75%, Rose was far and away the better player from the stats you yourself cite. It isn’t close. And it isn’t exactly a question of peak value vs. career, since Rose’s peak years go on and on. Ryan’s career is erratic, to a degree, and using your criteria, seems almost to peak long after most players have taken… Read more »

Doug
Editor
10 years ago

If Rose had retired after the 1979 season, I would agree with you. It wouldn’t be close. But, he didn’t. Had he hung around another year two after he was providing value, no big deal. Lots of guys do that. He’s more than entitled. But, Rose hung on for 7 more seasons, and hurt his team a lot in that chase for Cobb’s record. So, good for Rose for breaking the record. But, bad on him for putting his pursuit of a personal goal above the team (more especially so, since he was managing that team). Not sure I understand… Read more »

mosc
mosc
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Rose wasn’t hurting any team, that’s not fair. He put butts in the seats which paid for the salaries of positive production players. Having Rose on your team was always a good thing.

no statistician but
no statistician but
10 years ago

A comment, not a vote, since, for reasons of my own, I’ve refrained from participating in the COG thing.

The only reason for preferring Ryan over Rose is the latter’s gambling addiction and it’s resulting fallout. Rose was the better performer by far. Think about it this way—which player would you prefer on your team if you had to chose between them in their primes. Personally, even if my team was short on pitching, I’d take Rose and look for someone else to close the pitching gap. The goal is to win, and Rose was a winner.

Hartvig
Hartvig
10 years ago

Ryan was a phenomenal talent who didn’t really learn how to harness it until he was an age when most players are finished. Had he done so at age 27 or so he likely would have been the greatest pitcher ever.

Rose hung around for several years too long but at his best got as much out of his talent as any player ever has- and I agree with nsb; of the two, he did more to help your team win.

Rose

Dr. Remulak
Dr. Remulak
10 years ago

Biggio. Oh, and Pete Rose.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago

This runoff had given me the idea for the perfect solution to the Rose problem.
MLB should handle it WWE style.

For Rose to be reinstated, he has to

stand in the batter’s box
facing Nolan Ryan (juiced on Advil)

He has to take a beaning from Nolan Ryan.

AND!
And…

He then has to charge the mound.

Artie Z
Artie Z
10 years ago

Peter Edward Rose Sr.

Jeff Harris
Jeff Harris
10 years ago

Nolan Ryan. The Express moves on.

oneblankspace
10 years ago

As Chicago Tribune columnist Steve Rosenbloom would put it, death is not an option: Ryan : 7 no-hitters, 0 perfect games, 0 triple plays, 4 games with 19 K (3 in extra innings, 1 in 9 innings), 10 World Series batters faced, 66 SH batting, career record in K, 3rd all-time in L, not suspended for the Robin Ventura fight because the umpires did not eject him, 41 instances of black ink including 1985 SH batting, 1976 L, 6 seasons BB, 1982 HBP, 1990 3B allowed, 6 seasons WP Rose : 0 cycles (triple short 6 times, homer short 3… Read more »

Andy
Andy
10 years ago

Ryan. More feats

PaulE
PaulE
10 years ago

Pete Rose….

…..if only because I once saw Nolan Ryan scream at 2b Julio Franco when he made a 9th inning error while Ryan was pursuing another no-hitter in his mid-40’s. No shit….it’s gotta be on retrosheet

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago
Reply to  PaulE
Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

And here’s the 7th one.
Only error was on a botched rundown in the 1st:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/TEX/TEX199105010.shtml

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Found it.
You remebered the 9th inning, because that makes sense.
It was, however, the 1st inning, 1st batter:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SEA/SEA198906030.shtml

http://ballsandstrikes.mlblogs.com/2010/11/16/the-nolan-ryan-almost-no-hitter-in-the-kingdome/

Paul E
Paul E
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Voom: At County Stadium, Milwaukee Wisconsin 7/31/1990 – The Biggest Night in Nolan’s Life (since the birth of son #1)…. With Ryan going for #300, 2b Julio Cesar Franco commits two errors in the bottom of the 8th inning and turns a 5-1 advantage to a 5-3 struggle in this epic battle of good versus evil. Lynn Nolan Ryan screams at Julio in disappointment and has to depart for relief. Franco responds with a Grande Salame in a 6-run top of the 9th as we faithful of ESPN watch the prodigal Dominican redeem himself and round the bases (bells, trumpets,… Read more »

Darien
10 years ago

I’m with Dr. Remulak on this one: Biggio. My second choice is also Pete Rose.

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
10 years ago

Ryan. Only starting pitcher that is in my personal group of all time favorites.

T-Bone
T-Bone
10 years ago

18 for Rose and 11 for Ryan at this point.

I vote for Ryan.
Whee! This is fun.

Mike G.
Mike G.
10 years ago

I vote for Nolan Ryan

RonG
RonG
10 years ago

My vote is for Nolan Ryan.

Nick Pain
Nick Pain
10 years ago

Lynn Nolan Ryan.

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
10 years ago

I will go with Ryan.

PaulE
PaulE
10 years ago

I apologize to all. It was Ryan’s 300th win on 7/31/1990 or 7/31/1991. …..and, yeah, he was screaming at JC Franco in a hissy fit that made a Jim Palmer eye-roll forgivable.
With that kind of talent, he should have won 400 games.

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
10 years ago

Rose (by a nose).

mosc
mosc
10 years ago

Nolan Ryan plus some extra meaningless text

Abbott
Abbott
10 years ago

I would prefer Biggio, but I’ll settle for Ryan

Kirk
Kirk
10 years ago

Nolan Ryan – only because my nephew just named his first born Nolan.

Insert Name Here
Insert Name Here
10 years ago

I vote for Pete Rose. Unless there was a change I am forgetting about, one of the earliest ground rules laid out for the COG was that we, the voters, are only supposed to consider playing careers. Therefore, all the bad things Rose did since retiring and all the great things Ryan did since retiring are thrown out the window. Playing careers only, Rose is simply better. Better peak, better average season IMHO, more playoff success…. it all points to Charlie Hustle!

mosc
mosc
10 years ago

You really think he just spontaneously started betting on baseball when he became a manager? This seems like a rather absurd sidestep of the question on whither his actions justify exclusion from COG or not by saying they happened purely after. Didn’t Rose admit to betting as a player as well?

opal611
opal611
10 years ago

My vote is for Nolan Ryan.

bells
bells
10 years ago
Reply to  opal611

awww, I was hoping you’d follow with ‘other players I was considering voting for: Pete Rose’.