This post is for voting and discussion in the 50th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats. This round adds to the ballot those players born in 1930. Rules and lists are after the jump.
The new group joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full group eligible to receive your votes this round. The new group of 1930-born players must, as always, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).
Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility (or six future rounds, if they appear on 75% or more of the ballots). Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.
All voting for this round closes at 11:00 PM EDT on Saturday, March 15, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:00 PM EDT Thursday, March 13.
If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1930 Round Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover players; additional player columns from the new born-in-1930 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.
Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The 13 current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The new group of 1930 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.
Holdovers:
Lou Whitaker (eligibility guaranteed for 6 rounds)
Sandy Koufax (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Eddie Mathews (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Ernie Banks (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Juan Marichal (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Ron Santo (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
John Smoltz (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Bobby Grich (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Kenny Lofton (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Edgar Martinez (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Willie McCovey (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ryne Sandberg (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Everyday Players (born in 1930, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Del Crandall
Harvey Kuenn
Dick Groat
Hobie Landrith
Bill Skowron
Jerry Lynch
Gus Triandos
Frank Malzone
Wally Moon
Frank House
Bob Lillis
Hal Smith
Pitchers (born in 1930, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Dick Hall
Don McMahon
Bob Friend
Vern Law
Johnny Antonelli
Roger Craig
Frank Lary
Tom Morgan
Bob Turley
Gene Conley
Paul Foytack
Gordon Jones
Frank Sullivan
Tom Sturdivant
Mathews, Banks, Santo
Mathews, Banks, Koufax.
Whitaker, Koufax, Santo
Wow. So many new names on the ballot. Where do I start?
– How about Dick Groat. He, Derek Jeter, Honus Wagner, Joe Sewell and Alex Rodriguez are the only shortstops with eight consecutive seasons batting .275 with 20 doubles and 50 RBI.
– Harvey Kuenn and Ty Cobb share the Tigers’ team record with two league-leading 200 hit seasons by age 23, at least one season more than the record for every other team. Kuenn wins the tie-breaker over Cobb as one of Harvey’s seasons led both leagues.
– Del Crandall holds the NL record for games caught as a teenager, with 63 for the 1949 Braves.
– Hobie Landrith never had 400 PA in 14 seasons, and 12 times was under 250 PA. Yet, he had six top 5 finishes in league TZR for catchers.
– After nine seasons (incl. 5 A-S selections) as the Yankees’ first baseman, Bill Skowron was traded after the 1962 season. Moose got even by tattooing Yankee pitching to the tune of .385/.429/.615 as the Dodgers swept the Bombers in the 1963 WS.
– Pinch-hitting specialist Jerry Lynch leads all players with 3 seasons of 50+ RBI in less than 300 AB. Seventeen players have had two such seasons.
– Gus Triandos was one of 15 players involved in a trade between the Yankees and Orioles after the 1954 season. Triandos had the most errors among AL catchers in 1958 and 1959 … and was an All-Star selection both times.
– Frank Malzone leads all Red Sox third baseman with 7 seasons of 150 games. At the 140 level, Wade Boggs bests Malzone 10 seasons to 8. Boggs’ 142 OPS+ and 62.9 WAR in Beantown are also an upgrade on Malzone’s 93 and 16.2.
– Wally Moon‘s 716 PA in his debut 1954 season are the most in a pre-expansion first season. That mark has been bettered only four times since, by three AL players in 1961, and by Ichiro Suzuki forty years after that.
– Frank House and Red Wilson each had 6 consecutive seasons (1954-59) of 200-400 PA with more runs scored than strikeouts. Wilson added a 7th season in 1960, the longest such streak by a catcher since Frank Bowerman in 1902-08. Since Wilson and House, only these catchers have had a streak of even 3 years: Smoky Burgess, Dave Rader, Charlie Moore, John Stearns and Scott Bradley.
– Bob Lillis is one of 9 shortstops with career OPS+ of 55 or less in 2000+ PA. Half of the other eight players had careers that overlapped that of Lillis.
– Hal Smith is featured in another Birtelcom post published yesterday.
Isn’t it odd that Harvey Kuenn, pretty much exclusively a singles hitter, managed the “Wallbangers?” I mean, those ’82-’83 Brewers really knocked the cover off the ball, adjusting for era. About 1/3 of their hits were for extra bases in ’82, and over 30% were for extra bases in ’83 (MLB was around 28% both years). Kuenn’s career percentage was about 23% (when MLB was around 28-29%). And of those, 71% were doubles. Those early-80s Brewers had about 52% doubles and 60% doubles AS A TEAM, respectively (meaning they were a lot better at hitting triples and homers than Kuenn was as a player). Kuenn as a hitter profiles almost nothing like the teams he later managed. I imagine that, among good managers, that’s probably pretty common. A good manager will maximize what he has, not try to remake it in his own image (which never ends well). Still, I think it’s kind of interesting.
Billy Bean famously looks for hitters that were nothing like him. He was drafted out of high school with lots of power and a relatively average BA in his senior year and lots of “tools”. He’s famous for drafting college hitters with a track record of hitting above all other skills.
A manager doesn’t really have much say in the talent he has but a general manager, especially one who has been there as long as any of his player’s professional careers, I find it even more interesting.
“- Gus Triandos was one of 15 players involved in a trade between the Yankees and Orioles after the 1954 season. Triandos had the most errors among AL catchers in 1958 and 1959 … and was an All-Star selection both times.”
We’ll let Herc from the wire explain why:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxsiZjHO7SA
Wally Moon is the only player with exactly 76 RBI in each of his first two years in the ML. Rocco Baldelli came close with 78 and 74 in his first two years.
As a group this bunch of 1930-born pitchers is interesting for one particular reason—so many of the starters were very good for a relatively short while or sporadically in short careers: Antonelli, Lary, Turley, Conley, Sullivan—all were All-Stars at least twice, yet none of them won 130 games. Part of that can be ascribed to military service, since all but Conley lost two years to the draft. Conley, I’d guess, was too tall for the military at that time. He may have lost something instead because of his pro basketball career.
Bob Friend and Vern Law suffered together for the Pirates in the Fifties but had longer careers and several fine seasons apiece. Friend was one of those pitchers whose record comes up short of his stats. He lost a heck of a lot of games, even after the Pirates turned it around, in spite of fairly impressive ERAs. WAR makes Friend out to be a more successful pitcher than Law, but Law was 2-0 against the Yankees in the 1960 Series in three impressive starts, while Friend was bombed for a 13.50 ERA and two losses in his two starts.
Can anyone really tell Tom Sturdivant, Johnny Kucks, and Bod Grim apart after all this time? Could they in the 1950s?
I believe Friend is one of only three pitchers with more than 200 losses and fewer than 200 wins (197-230). The other two, Chick Fraser (175-212) and Jim Whitney (191-204), completed their careers prior to 1910.
Vote:
Koufax
Lofton
Whitaker
A good group. But with this many talented holdovers, I’m honestly glad that we don’t have too much in the way of newcomers.
Eddie Mathews
Ron Santo
Bobby Grich
I’m making this vote for now, but I don’t have access to my spreadsheet at the moment.
Whoops. I checked my spreadsheet. I must’ve forgotten about Ernie Banks. Revised vote:
Eddie Mathews
Ron Santo
Ernie Banks
Final answer, Regis.
Eddie Mathews, Lou Whitaker, Bobby Grich
I’m really looking forward to the 1929 vote!
Matthews, Biggio, Edgar
Eddie Mathews.
Ernie Banks.
Sandy Koufax.
If I had the BBWAA 10 votes allowed I would include Whitaker, Santo, Marichal, McCovey, Grich, Kuenn, and sentimental Tigers vote for Frank Lary.
Malzone was a terrific fielding 3rd baseman and fairly consistent for a number of years with the bat. I remember him stopping at the McDonalds I worked at as a teen mid 60’s and waving and saying hi. Malzone’s nose was bigger in real life, like an eclipse of the sun. If he had it full of basehits he would have had over 3000 of them.
Most Games Played at 3rd Base, 1957-1964:
1. Frank Malzone 1,209
2. Eddie Mathews 1,137
3. Ken Boyer 1,108
4. Brooks Robinson 1,074
5. Don Hoak 936
Most All-Star Plate Appearances as a Third Baseman for the AL:
1. Brooks Robinson 47
2. Wade Boggs 32
3. George Brett 30
4. George Kell 25
5. Frank Malzone 21
Malzone was also on that first 1957 Gold Glove team with players from both leagues.
Minoso, Nellie Fox, Mays, and of course The Six.
Eddie Mathews
Lou Whitaker
Bobby Grich
Mathews, Santo, Smoltz
Matthews, Koufax, McCovey
Koufax, Mathews, Marichal
Sandberg
Santo
Banks.
A little blue today, I guess.
Mathews, Koufax, Banks
Eddie Mathews, Ron Santo, Ernie Banks
Mathews, Marichal, Martinez.
I’ve always posted only the names I voting for.
This time I will support why I’m voting for my fellow Dominican legend, Juan Marichal.
These are the names who have led every 10-years span since 1955 in pitching WAR:
Period Pitcher 10-years periods
2001-13 Roy Halladay 4
1998-09 Randy Johnson 3
1996-06 Pedro Martínez 2
1993-04 Randy Johnson 3
1991-01 Greg Maddux 2
1982-99 Roger Clemens 9
1979-90 Dave Stieb 3
1977-87 Ron Guidry 2
1971-85 Phil Niekro 6
1967-79 Tom Seaver 4
1966-75 Gaylord Perry 1
1961-74 Bob Gibson 5
1960-69 Juan Marichal 1
1959-68 Don Drysdale 1
1958-67 Jim Bunning 1
1957-66 Sandy Koufax 1
1955-65 Don Drysdale 2
The last column means that Halladay led every 10-years period (4 different ones) between 2001 and 2013. Let’s see the peak 10-years span for every one of these pitchers and other ones:
Pitcher PeakWAR Period COG Results
Randy Johnson 74.1 1993-02 Inducted in 1st round
Pedro Martínez 73.6 1996-05 Not in ballot yet
Tom Seaver 73.1 1968-77 Inducted in 1st round
Roger Clemens 71.2 1989-98 Inducted in 1st round
Greg Maddux 69.6 1992-01 Inducted in 1st round
Bob Gibson 67.2 1964-73 Inducted in 4th round
Gaylord Perry 66.4 1967-76 Inducted in 5th round
Phil Niekro 65.8 1971-80 Inducted in 2nd round
Roy Halladay 62.4 2002-11 Not in ballot yet
Curt Schilling 60.9 1995-04 Inducted in 8th round
Fergie Jenkins 60.1 1967-76 Inducted in 1st round
Bert Blyleven 58.2 1970-79 Inducted in 1st round
Juan Marichal 57.4 1962-71 On 11th round
Jim Palmer 56.7 1969-78 Inducted in 7th round
Kevin Brown 54.7 1992-01 Out after 5th round
Mike Mussina 53.8 1994-03 Inducted in 8th round
Jim Bunning 53.7 1958-67 Out after 2th round
David Cone 52.9 1990-99 Out after 1st round
Sandy Koufax 52.6 1957-66 On 8th round
Steve Carlton 52.1 1972-81 Inducted in 2nd round
Don Drysdale 50.7 1959-68 Out after 4th round
Rick Reuschel 49.8 1972-81 Out after 5th round
Dave Stieb 49.4 1981-90 Out after 1st round
Tom Glavine 47.7 1991-00 Inducted in 13th round
Nolan Ryan 46.6 1972-81 Inducted in 9th round
Luis Tiant 45.8 1967-76 Out after 2nd round
Ron Guidry 45.1 1977-86 Out after 1st round
John Smoltz 39.9 1990-99 On 49th round
Mariano Rivera 34.2 1996-05 Inducted in 2nd round
So, in my opinion, Marichal must be the next pitcher to get inducted.
My vote: Juan Marichal, Eddie Mathews, Ernie Banks.
Mathews
Koufax
Banks
Grich, McCovey, Sandberg
Koufax, McCovey, Banks
Lofton
Biggio
Sandberg
Owen: I’ve been away for a few weeks, but I think you are a new voter; if so, welcome aboard. You may perhaps have good memories of 1992: Lofton was second in the Rookie of the Year voting and Biggo and Sandberg were both All-Stars.
McCovey, Marichal, and Whitaker
Mathews, Santo, Marichal
Whitaker marichal matthews
And, some tidbits about the pitchers.
– Dick Hall had 11 consecutive seasons (1961-71) with a .500 or better W-L%, second among relievers behind Oriole teammate Grant Jackson‘s 12 year run (1971-82). Of 44 pitchers with a W-L% under .350 in 500+ IP over the first 6 seasons of a career, only Jackson and Red Ruffing compiled a career W-L% above .500.
– Don McMahon, Hoyt Wilhelm, Kent Tekulve and Steve Reed are the only pitchers to log 750 or more games after debuting at age 27 or older.
– Bob Friend‘s .359 W-L% in 500+ IP over his first four seasons is second lowest to Red Ruffing‘s .303, among pitchers with 100 career ERA+ in 3000+ innings.
– Vern Law was Bob Friend‘s pitching mate in Pittsburgh. Those two are the only non-HOFers with 10 starts and a CG in every year of a career of 16 or more seasons, sharing company with Carl Hubbell (16 yrs), Lefty Grove (17), Eddie Plank (17), Robin Roberts (19) and Walter Johnson (21).
– Johnny Antonelli and 1949 Braves’ teammate Del Crandall formed the first of 9 searchable teenage batteries, all during the 1949 to 1971 period.
– Roger Craig is the last pitcher to record 20+ losses in consecutive seasons (1962-63), joining Red Ruffing, Bump Hadley and Paul Derringer as the only live-ball era pitchers to do so. Craig and Ruffing have the additional distinction of leading both leagues in losses in each of those seasons.
– Frank Lary logged 225+ IP and made 30+ starts in each of his first 7 qualifying seasons, recording “good” black ink in at least one category each season. For that 1955-61 period, Lary led the AL in IP, Starts and CG, and was third in ERA+.
– Tom Morgan had a winning record in his one season (1957) as a Kansas City Athletic. In 13 years in KC, only 7 As pitchers had a winning record in seasons of 10+ starts and 140 IP, each of the seven doing so only once.
– Bob Turley‘s 6.67 H/9 led the majors for the 1953-58 period, comfortably ahead of second place Whitey Ford at 7.37. Turley was even better in the post-season with a 5.68 mark over 44.1 WS innings.
– It’s only fitting that Boston Celtics’ star Gene Conley was the last player to play in Boston for both the Braves and Red Sox, a distinction shared with 1963 Red Sox pitching mate Chet Nichols.
– Paul Foytack‘s 142 walks allowed in 1956, the 9th season since 1949 with that many free passes, would be the highest total in the majors until the 1971 season.
– Gordon Jones‘ 10 seasons under 60 IP were then (1965) the most in a career
– Frank Sullivan‘s 5 consecutive winning seasons with 13+ wins (1954-58) is tied with Lefty Grove, Luis Tiant and Joe Dobson for second longest such streak by a Red Sox pitcher, trailing only Roger Clemens‘ 7 seasons (1986-92).
– Tom Sturdivant‘s 59 wins are tied with Ted Wilks for the lowest career total among live ball era pitchers with careers of 10+ seasons that started with a .650 W-L% and 400+ IP over the first 3 seasons.
Sandy Koufax
Ed Mathews
Ernie Banks.
Mathews, Marichal, Smoltz
Koufax, Biggio, Grich
whitaker, Matthews, Banks
Lofton, Santo, and Banks
Mathews, Grich, Santo
Sandy Koufax, John Smoltz, Craig Biggio
Mathews, Banks & Smoltz
Biggio, Koufax, Matthews.
Biggio, Marichal, McCovey
Mathews, Banks & McCovey
Okay, I’m ranking the 13 candidates on 3 measures that measure slightly different aspects of career values – WAR, WAA+ and JAWS. Those on the ballot are ranked 1-13 on each measure and then given a cumulative ranking, so getting a 3 would mean a player was ranked first on all 3 measures, getting a 39 would mean being ranked 13th. Cumulative ranking is beside the player’s name, rankings of the respective individual values are in parentheses.
Mathews 3 (1 1 1)
Grich 9 (3 2 4)
Santo 9 (4 3 2)
Whitaker 13 (2 4 7)
Martinez 19 (6 5 8)
Banks 21 (8 10 3)
Smoltz 22 (5 6 11)
Lofton 23 (7 7 9)
Sandberg 23 (8 9 6)
McCovey 29 (11 8 10)
Marichal 29 (12 12 5)
Biggio 33 (10 11 12)
Koufax 39 (13 13 13)
Mathews, Grich, Santo
There appears to be one vote mistallied…Brendan @3 voted Whitaker, Koufax, Santo, but it was tallied as Whitaker, Koufax, Sandberg.
Good catch, David, thank you.
Martinez, Sandberg, Smoltz
Mathews, Marichal, McCovey
Eddie Mathews, Sandy Koufax, Ernie Banks
Banks, Koufax, Santo
Martinez, Lofton, Marichal
Mathews, Whitaker, Banks
Santo, Marichal, Whitaker
Mathews, Marichal, McCovey
Still in the M’s …
For the 1930 election, I’m voting for:
-Ryne Sandberg
-Edgar Martinez
-John Smoltz
Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Mathews
-Whitaker
-Grich
-Lofton
-Santo
-McCovey
-Biggio
-Banks
Mathews, Martinez, Lofton
Mathews
Grich
Lofton
Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasons:
Mathews 58.9
Grich 43.6
Santo 43.3
Whitaker 42.7
Martinez 41.3
Smoltz 40.1
Lofton 39.3
McCovey 38.9
Sandberg 38.8
Banks 36.8
Bunning 36.7
Biggio 36.3
Boyer 34.1
Marichal 32.7
Koufax 32.3
Mathews. Martinez. Smoltz.
If Eddie Mathews and Eddie Matthews were treated as separate voting options, both would have accumulated enough eligibility to be on this ballot. Mathews would still be on track to enter the Circle this round and Matthews, with five votes so far, would be on track to survive another round.
When in doubt, just remember that Eddie was one of those hard-drinking tough-guy types, not the kind of fellow you invite to tea.
I prefer to think of him as Christy Mathewson’s dad.
That second T is of little advantage in baseball, as Eddie, Christy, and borderline HoF pitcher Bobby Mathews all got by without it. Meanwhile, the two Garys are the only Matthewses to make an All-Star team.
I could vote for the managers of the 1975 Brewers (Crandall, Kuenn) but I’d still be one vote short.
I could vote for voices of Chicago Baseball on radio (Crandall, Santo) but I’d still be one vote short. I could combine those but I won’t.
Biggio, Mathews, Harvey Kuenn (who deserves at least one vote and hasn’t had one yet).
Kuenn played for five franchises: the Indians, Tigers, Phillies, Cubs and Giants. Jim Hegan, ten years older than Kuenn, also played for five franchises — the exact same five. The two guys were teammates for the first half of the 1958 season, when Hegan was briefly with Detroit, where Kuenn played for the first eight years of his MLB tenure.
– Craig Biggio
– Ryan Sandberg
– Juan Marichal
Keeping two second baseman on the ballot, plus giving a deserving pitcher a bit of a cushion (<25%).
Matthews, Santo, Lofton
You could win a pennant some years with a team made up of our newcomers although I’d probably trade some of the excess pitching & catchers for another outfielder and an upgrade at second base. That said, none of them are legitimate Hall of Famers much less COG worthy.
Hold overs are another story. I think 7 are definitely COG worthy and all but 1 at least might be.
Mathews, Santo, Sandberg
Matthews, Banks & McCovey
Santo, Whitaker, Martinez
Mathews, Santo, Grich
Koufax, Marichal, Mathews
Mathews, Koufax and a shout-out vote for Bob Friend, stuck with some lousy Pirates teams in the 50s.
Pittsburgh’s BFF is still the franchise career leader in BF (also Ks and IP).
Matthews (or, is that Matt Hughes?) Banks and Sandberg, as I honor the Midwest.
Matthews, Koufax, Smoltz
I actually see Banks as fairly borderline.
Juan Marichal (attempt to get him to 25%)
Vern Law (shout out vote #1)
And shout out vote #2 goes to…
Richard Morrow Groat
-starred at Duke University in basketball where he was the first to have his number retired there.
– third pick overall in the 1952 draft – the 1952 NBA draft – by the Fort Wayne Pistons (played one season)
– in MLB, won MVP and a batting title (1960) and two World Series rings (1960 and 1964)
– for past 35 years has served as analyst for Pitt Panther basketball games.
A picture of Groat, Pitt coach Jaime Dixon, and Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski can be seen in this article.
http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/234/files/2014/01/8166684.jpg
Matthews, Koufax and Smoltz
Not only did Groat win the NL MVP in 1960, he also got more NL MVP votes in 1963 than any other everyday player, coming in second in the voting to Sandy Koufax.
I also meant to mention that Groat wore #24 throughout his MLB career, until his last stop in San Francisco in 1967, when he switched to #20. Wonder why he decided to change? 😉
Marichal, Santo, Koufax
With 62 ballots cast:
– all of our holdovers have 8 votes or more except Lofton with 7. We have only had more than 70 ballots once in the past dozen but came close (69) a couple other times.
– in addition to Mathews having the win wrapped up, Koufax & Banks are certain to hit 25%. Santo can adsorb 6 ballots and stay above 25% and Marichal can handle 2. No one else has a realistic chance of reaching 25% (Whitaker would have to be named on everyone of the next 8 ballots cast- assuming there are that many).
I have no clue as to who’s going to be the favorite in the next round.
Banks, Lofton and the Yankee Killer, Frank Lary (the first ever two time Met)
Banks, Lofton, and The Yankee Killer, Frank Lary (first two time Met ever)
Bah! The last two weeks of my life have really sucked, and I haven’t been anywhere near HHS to be able to participate in these late two rounds. Without time to run my whole methodology before the deadline in about 10 minutes, I’ll just throw in a vote for the three greatest modern Cubbies, just to point out that the three greatest modern Cubbies are on the ballot together (maybe someone else pointed this out already, I wouldn’t know, I haven’t read the comments).
Eddie Banks, Ron Santo, Ryne Sandberg