Quiz – what’s old is new again (stumped)

22 Replies

The first list are pitchers who began their careers between 1893 and 1919. The second list are pitchers who played their entire careers between 1920 and 2000.

For both lists, only these pitchers had a particular career accomplishment. What is it?

Rk Player Player
1 Babe Adams Jim Merritt
2 Noodles Hahn Fergie Jenkins
3 Deacon Phillippe Ron Guidry
4 Eddie Plank Jim Bunning
5 Walter Johnson Bert Blyleven
6 Mordecai Brown Gaylord Perry
7 Chief Bender Tom Seaver
8 Smoky Joe Wood Juan Marichal
9 Christy Mathewson Don Drysdale
10 Addie Joss Sandy Koufax
11 Rube Waddell
12 Ed Walsh
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 5/21/2014.

Hint: while rare in the above periods, this feat has recently become more common, accomplished by 15 retired pitchers active since 2001.

I evidently stumped our readers with this one. The solution is that, among starting pitchers with 1000+ IP careers played entirely between 1893 and 2000, only the quiz players had a career FIP either below their SO/BB ratio, or no more than 20% higher than their SO/BB ratio. More after the jump:

Here are those careers.

Rk Player FIP SO/W IP From To Age G GS CG SHO W L W-L% ERA ERA+ Tm
1 Noodles Hahn 2.65 2.41 2029.1 1899 1906 20-27 243 231 212 25 130 94 .580 2.55 132 CIN-NYY
2 Addie Joss 2.25 2.53 2327.0 1902 1910 22-30 286 260 234 45 160 97 .623 1.89 142 CLE
3 Rube Waddell 2.03 2.88 2961.1 1897 1910 20-33 407 340 261 50 193 143 .574 2.16 135 LOU-PIT-CHC-PHA-SLB
4 Deacon Phillippe 2.60 2.56 2607.0 1899 1911 27-39 372 289 242 27 189 109 .634 2.59 120 LOU-PIT
5 Mordecai Brown 2.42 2.04 3172.1 1903 1916 26-39 481 332 271 55 239 130 .648 2.06 139 STL-CHC-CIN-SLM-BTT-CHI
6 Christy Mathewson 2.26 2.96 4788.2 1900 1916 19-35 636 552 435 79 373 188 .665 2.13 135 NYG-CIN
7 Eddie Plank 2.45 2.10 4495.2 1901 1917 25-41 623 529 410 69 326 194 .627 2.35 122 PHA-SLM-SLB
8 Ed Walsh 2.02 2.81 2964.1 1904 1917 23-36 430 315 250 57 195 126 .607 1.82 145 CHW-BSN
9 Smoky Joe Wood 2.26 2.35 1434.1 1908 1920 18-30 225 158 121 28 117 57 .672 2.03 147 BOS-CLE
10 Chief Bender 2.29 2.40 3017.0 1903 1925 19-41 459 334 255 40 212 127 .625 2.46 112 PHA-BAL-PHI-CHW
11 Babe Adams 2.72 2.41 2995.1 1906 1926 24-44 482 354 205 44 194 140 .581 2.76 117 STL-PIT
12 Walter Johnson 2.42 2.57 5914.1 1907 1927 19-39 802 666 531 110 417 279 .599 2.17 147 WSH
13 Sandy Koufax 2.69 2.93 2324.1 1955 1966 19-30 397 314 137 40 165 87 .655 2.76 131 BRO-LAD
14 Don Drysdale 3.02 2.91 3432.0 1956 1969 19-32 518 465 167 49 209 166 .557 2.95 121 BRO-LAD
15 Jim Bunning 3.22 2.86 3760.1 1955 1971 23-39 591 519 151 40 224 184 .549 3.27 115 DET-PHI-PIT-LAD
16 Juan Marichal 3.04 3.25 3507.0 1960 1975 22-37 471 457 244 52 243 142 .631 2.89 123 SFG-BOS-LAD
17 Jim Merritt 3.37 2.89 1483.0 1965 1975 21-31 297 192 56 9 81 86 .485 3.65 99 MIN-CIN-TEX
18 Fergie Jenkins 3.28 3.20 4500.2 1965 1983 22-40 664 594 267 49 284 226 .557 3.34 115 PHI-CHC-TEX-BOS
19 Gaylord Perry 3.06 2.56 5350.0 1962 1983 23-44 777 690 303 53 314 265 .542 3.11 117 SFG-CLE-SDP-TEX-NYY-ATL-SEA-KCR
20 Tom Seaver 3.04 2.62 4783.0 1967 1986 22-41 656 647 231 61 311 205 .603 2.86 127 NYM-CIN-CHW-BOS
21 Ron Guidry 3.27 2.81 2392.0 1975 1988 24-37 368 323 95 26 170 91 .651 3.29 119 NYY
22 Bert Blyleven 3.19 2.80 4970.0 1970 1992 19-41 692 685 242 60 287 250 .534 3.31 118 TEX-PIT-CLE-MIN-CAL
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 5/23/2014.

So, quite a gap in time between Walter Johnson and Sandy Koufax, mainly due to declining SO/BB through the first decades of the live ball era. But, as you know, that has changed. Strikeouts are way up, and so thus are SO/BB ratios. The result is 15 retired pitchers active in this century who meet the quiz criteria, plus an additional 16 pitchers active in 2014 who currently meet that test.

Rk Player FIP SO/W IP From To Age G GS CG SHO W L W-L% ERA ERA+ Tm
1 Bret Saberhagen 3.27 3.64 2562.2 1984 2001 20-37 399 371 76 16 167 117 .588 3.34 126 KCR-NYM-COL-BOS
2 Shane Reynolds 3.69 3.35 1791.2 1992 2004 24-36 305 278 20 7 114 96 .543 4.09 103 HOU-ATL-ARI
3 Roger Clemens 3.09 2.96 4916.2 1984 2007 21-44 709 707 118 46 354 184 .658 3.12 143 BOS-TOR-NYY-HOU
4 Curt Schilling 3.23 4.38 3261.0 1988 2007 21-40 569 436 83 20 216 146 .597 3.46 127 BAL-HOU-PHI-ARI-BOS
5 Jon Lieber 4.02 3.68 2198.0 1994 2008 24-38 401 327 25 5 131 124 .514 4.27 103 PIT-CHC-NYY-PHI
6 Greg Maddux 3.26 3.37 5008.1 1986 2008 20-42 744 740 109 35 355 227 .610 3.16 132 CHC-ATL-LAD-SDP
7 Mike Mussina 3.57 3.58 3562.2 1991 2008 22-39 537 536 57 23 270 153 .638 3.68 123 BAL-NYY
8 Randy Johnson 3.19 3.26 4135.1 1988 2009 24-45 618 603 100 37 303 166 .646 3.29 135 MON-SEA-HOU-ARI-NYY-SFG
9 Pedro Martinez 2.91 4.15 2827.1 1992 2009 20-37 476 409 46 17 219 100 .687 2.93 154 LAD-MON-BOS-NYM-PHI
10 John Smoltz 3.24 3.05 3473.0 1988 2009 21-42 723 481 53 16 213 155 .579 3.33 125 ATL-STL-BOS
11 Javier Vazquez 3.91 3.32 2840.0 1998 2011 21-34 450 443 28 8 165 160 .508 4.22 105 MON-NYY-ARI-CHW-ATL-FLA
12 Johan Santana 3.44 3.51 2025.2 2000 2012 21-33 360 284 15 10 139 78 .641 3.20 136 MIN-NYM
13 Ben Sheets 3.66 3.59 1596.2 2001 2012 22-33 250 250 18 4 94 96 .495 3.78 113 MIL-OAK-ATL
14 Roy Halladay 3.39 3.58 2749.1 1998 2013 21-36 416 390 67 20 203 105 .659 3.38 131 TOR-PHI
15 Roy Oswalt 3.37 3.56 2245.1 2001 2013 23-35 365 341 20 8 163 102 .615 3.36 127 HOU-PHI-TEX-COL
16 Zack Greinke 3.42 3.52 1728.0 2004 2014 20-30 310 269 13 4 113 83 .577 3.59 117 KCR-MIL-LAA-LAD
17 Cole Hamels 3.53 3.81 1634.1 2006 2014 22-30 251 250 13 6 100 76 .568 3.40 122 PHI
18 Dan Haren 3.66 4.09 2103.0 2003 2014 22-33 336 325 16 6 134 113 .543 3.73 112 STL-OAK-ARI-LAA-WSN-LAD
19 Felix Hernandez 3.20 3.28 1892.0 2005 2014 19-28 279 279 23 9 115 87 .569 3.19 127 SEA
20 Clayton Kershaw 2.86 3.12 1202.1 2008 2014 20-26 188 186 11 7 79 47 .627 2.63 144 LAD
21 Hiroki Kuroda 3.63 3.32 1174.2 2008 2014 33-39 189 188 6 5 71 73 .493 3.46 116 LAD-NYY
22 Cliff Lee 3.44 3.93 2143.1 2002 2014 23-35 325 321 29 12 143 90 .614 3.50 119 CLE-PHI-TEX-SEA
23 Tim Lincecum 3.23 2.77 1461.0 2007 2014 23-30 230 229 9 6 92 73 .558 3.51 111 SFG
24 Ricky Nolasco 3.80 3.47 1368.1 2006 2014 23-31 238 221 10 4 91 79 .535 4.42 93 FLA-MIA-LAD-MIN
25 Jake Peavy 3.59 3.13 1999.0 2002 2014 21-33 315 314 15 6 133 100 .571 3.53 114 SDP-CHW-BOS
26 David Price 3.38 3.26 1042.1 2008 2014 22-28 162 157 10 2 75 43 .636 3.26 120 TBR
27 Max Scherzer 3.48 3.30 1085.0 2008 2014 23-29 184 175 0 0 79 46 .632 3.61 118 ARI-DET
28 James Shields 3.76 3.57 1750.2 2006 2014 24-32 262 261 21 8 106 85 .555 3.75 111 TBD-TBR-KCR
29 Justin Verlander 3.39 3.01 1838.0 2005 2014 22-31 276 276 20 6 142 80 .640 3.41 127 DET
30 Adam Wainwright 3.14 3.40 1387.2 2005 2014 23-32 258 195 18 8 106 59 .642 3.05 131 STL
31 Jered Weaver 3.69 3.14 1541.0 2006 2014 23-31 241 241 12 6 118 63 .652 3.22 128 LAA
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 5/23/2014.

22 thoughts on “Quiz – what’s old is new again (stumped)”

    1. Doug Post author

      SO/BB is part of the answer.

      But, there’s something else.

      BTW, your query returns many more pitchers than those in the quiz.

      Reply ↓
    1. Doug Post author

      No, that’s not it.

      A couple more early guys (Pete Alexander and Dazzy Vance) and a bunch more of the second set (Hubbell, Gibson, Lolich, Key, Matlack, Haddix and more) get picked up with those criteria.

      Reply ↓
  6. Michael Sullivan

    I’m gonna guess SO > BB + ER. So far it matches, and I haven’t found any really good pitcher that fits who isn’t on this list. And I can imagine that a lot more pitchers would close out their career with that now. Probably any pitcher with a reasonable shot at the hall who was still pitching in the 2000s would be on the list now, and many of the HOVG pitchers as well.

    Reply ↓
    1. Doug Post author

      No. That’s not it.

      The answer involves the SO/BB ratio, but not SO and BB separately as in your formulation.

      Players who meet your criteria and aren’t on the lists are:
      – Old: Dazzy Vance
      – New: Sid Fernandez, Bob Veale, Andy Messersmith, Jim Maloney, Harvey Haddix, Jose Rijo, Dean Chance, Mario Soto, Dizzy Dean, etc.

      Reply ↓
  7. John Autin

    The piece besides SO/W ratio must be more essential. This group’s SO/W range is at least 2.10 (Plank) to 3.20 (Fergie) — I’m too lazy to make sure those are the real high and low, but either way it’s a huge range. And at least two guys had less than 1,500 IP. I am stumped.

    Reply ↓
      1. Michael Sullivan

        WHIP would be the most obvious, but it can’t just be that or Cy Young would be on there. WHIP is better than many of these guys and his K/BB is 2.3, higher than the lowest here.

        FIP, another obvious candidate, also suffers from the Cy Young exception.

        Same with H/9.

        Reply ↓
        1. Doug

          One of those three is the other stat.

          Note that Cy Young did not begin his career between 1893 and 1919.

          Reply ↓
          1. Doug

            No, it’s SO/BB plus one of the metrics identified by Michael Sullivan in comment 15.

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