This post is for voting and discussion in the 86th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG). This round completes the addition to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1904. Rules and lists are after the jump.
Players born in 1904 are being brought on to the COG eligible list over two rounds, split in half based on last names — the top half by alphabetical order was added in this past week’s round and the bottom half is being added this round. This round’s new group joins the holdovers from prior balloting to comprise the full set of players eligible to receive your votes this round.
The new group of 1904-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This new group of 1904-born candidates joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.
Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. As always, the one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.
In total there were 17 players born in 1904 who met the “10 seasons played or 20 WAR” minimum requirement. Eight of those are being added to the eligible list this round (alphabetically from Bump Hadley to Sam West). The nine players higher up in the alphabet were added in this past week’s round.
All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EST Tuesday, March 3, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EST Sunday, March 1.
If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1904 Part 2 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1904 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.
Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The fourteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1904 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.
Holdovers:
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for 9 rounds)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Roy Campanella (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dwight Evans (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Wes Ferrell (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Minnie Minoso (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Red Ruffing (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Everyday Players (born in 1904, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Chuck Klein
Buddy Myer
Sam West
Ray Hayworth
Billy Rogell
Pepper Martin
Mark Koenig
Pitchers (born in 1904, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Bump Hadley
Murray, Eck, Ashburn
Red Ruffing, Harmon Killebrew; and Dwight Evans – Still cannot give a to Mr. May nor Eddie Murray who played a long time but was never in the discussion as the best of his generation.
So Ruffing, Killebrew, and Evans were in the discussion for best of their generation???
Conversation:
Best hitting pitcher.
Best three-true-outcome, three-positon player.
Best productive-from-all-nine-batting-order-positions player with a moustache.
Best hitting pitcher is Ferrell not Ruffing.
This is just getting tougher and tougher every round. Best of luck to all the candidates before the 1903 round comes to make the COG bar go much, much, MUCH higher.
Kevin Brown
Luis Tiant
Graig Nettles
That third spot was a toughy – Nettles, Ferrell, Reuschel, and Campy are all rightthere for me… but I have two pitchers already and didn’t want to go with three, and when in doubt, I’ll take the guy with the ML track record, rather than the one for whom we have to project.
I’m giving all three of my votes to the snubbed-for-way-too-long Mr. Murray!
Wait, what do you mean I can’t do that????!!!! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Fine.
1) Murray
2) Nettles to try to get him an extra round ahead of 1903.
3) Evans
Killebrew, Murray, Winfield
Minoso, Ashburn, Ruffing
This round’s tidbits.
1. Bump Hadley lost 20 games in each of his first two seasons (1932-33) with the Browns. Who was the first Browns pitcher to do this?
2. Chuck Klein’s triple crown season in 1933 is the only one by a Phillie. Besides Klein, which four Phillies had a season since 1901 with two-thirds of a triple crown?
3. Buddy Myer played 200 games at 2B, 3B and SS within the first 6 seasons of his career. Who is the only player since Myer to do the same?
4. Sam West was the career WAR leader among contemporary center-fielders who never played on a pennant-winning team. West compiled three straight seasons (1933-35) with 150 hits and 90 runs scored. Who is the only Browns/Orioles outfielder since West to do the same?
5. Ray Hayworth ended his catching career as a wartime fill-in for the Dodgers. Who was the first Dodger after Hayworth to catch a game after turning 40?
6. Billy Rogell had 5 consecutive seasons (1934-38) with 70 runs and 70 walks. Who is the only Tiger shortstop since with more than one such season?
7. Pepper Martin scored 121 runs in 1935, the most in a season with fewer than 200 times reaching base. Which player has the fewest runs scored when reaching base 200 times in a season?
8. Mark Koenig’s .500 batting average (9 for 18) in the 1927 World Series remains the record (min. 12 PA) for shortstops in the Fall Classic (Koenig went 9 for 58 for a .155 BA in four other World Series). In which World Series did the shortstops for both teams bat .400?
Yes! An easy one!!!!
Chuck Klein – Sherry Magee (1910), Gavvy Cravath (1913, 1915), Mike Schmidt (1980, 1981, 1984, 1986), and Ryan Howard (2006, 2008).
Yup.
Good on you for knowing the dead ball guys.
Ooh! I think I might have another!
I think the answer to the Billy Rogell question is actually not a guy most of us probably think of as a SS, which makes it a bit trickier – Dick McAuliffe, 1964 and 1966.
Good thou8ght, but McAuliffe’s 66 walks in ’66 is just shy of the mark.
Dang!!! I was looking at the SO column instead of BB! (Not the first time I’ve made that mistake, actually.)
I believe the answer is Eddie Lake, in 1946 and 1947.
That is correct.
And another!
I believe the answer to the Sam West question is someone I wrote about over in the Results post – none other than Mr. Nick Markakis, 2007-2009.
By the way, I’ve also heard some people claim that Nick Markakis is the best player ever to have neither appeared in an All-Star game nor received any MVP votes. I think that’s pretty compelling, because I can’t think of anyone better. Can anyone out there think of another such player superior to Markakis (since the establishment of the All-Star game, that is)?
Markakis is in a group of 33 players with 1500 hits in fewer than 6000 PA through age 30. The only other one in the group who was never an A-S was Juan Pierre, who twice received MVP votes.
Of the players in that group, Markakis’s slash (.290/.358/.435) through age 30 is most similar to Jose Reyes, but not too far off that of our last COG inductee, Joe Cronin (.301/.383/.453).
Highest WAR I can find in the no ASG/no MVP votes category is Mark Ellis, with 33.2 bWAR. I was ready to say Tony Phillips was the runaway winner, but he actually got some MVP votes for his great 1993 season. Jose Valentin is another one with a decent bWAR, with 31.6. Both Valentin and Ellis are getting a lot of their value from position and defense. Markakis is a better hitter, and he has two GG’s, but the metrics don’t like his defense very much.
Any others like Kirk Gibson to win an MVP but never get selected as an A-S?
Nope, Gibby’s the only MVP from the ASG-era to not make an ASG. IIRC, he claims he was a manager’s selection for the 1988 ASG but turned down the invite because he wanted to spend the break with his family.
@70,
Somewhat related: won MVP, but not selected to the ASG that year. I’m aware of Hank Greenberg in 1935, but there must be others??
LA @77
Terry Pendleton, Chipper Jones, Jimmy Rollins, Juan Gonzalez and Justin Morneau are others of the past 25 years who were A-S snubs (or declined selection) in their MVP seasons.
@80/Doug;
Thanks for the info; somehow I missed it on Tuesday.
So the next question would be, who is the best guy that fits the above criteria, but also never won or got any votes for a major end of season award? Markakis won two GG’s, and all three of the above (Markakis, Ellis and Valentin) got Rookie of the Year votes.
The best I can find there is Bob Bailey, with 28.7 bWAR over his 17 year career.
Bailey’s 1931 games are also the longest career for any player since 1933 who never received any A-S or Awards recognition. He’s just ahead of Dave Martinez with 1919 games. Their lack of recognition may or may not be related to playing significant portions of their careers for the Expos.
Next on the list is Lenny Harris with 1903 games and only 2.0 career WAR. At least, he clearly earned his non-recognition.
Okay, only one more… but it’s really fun to answer these (especially coming up with ways to figure it out sans PI).
Bump Hadley – the answer is Harry Howell, 1904 and 1905, in which he lost 21 and 22, respectively. No other Browns/Orioles pitchers other than these two lost 20+ more than once in ANY seasons, much less whilst making a first impression!
Right you are, double-D.
Doug: For the Buddy Myer question the best I could do was to find a guy named Jimmy Brown who played 200+ games at 2B and 3B but only 199 games at SS.
Jimmy Brown is the answer. P-I says he had 200 games at each position.
http://bbref.com/pi/shareit/NnKLR
But, I see how you came up with 199 for shortstop, based on the fielding stats section of his player page.
Is the answer to the Ray Hayworth question Rick Dempsey?
It is Dempsey, who caught 53 games for the Dodgers in 1990, 45 years after Hayworth. Since Dempsey, Sandy Alomar and Brad Ausmus have both caught for LA aged 40+.
Dempsey is also the oldest player to catch in the NLCS (at age 39 in 1988), and the oldest player to pitch and catch in the same season (at age 41 in 1991). Dempsey caught Mike Flanagan in 1992, one of only twelve batteries with both players over 40 and the only one of the twelve with both playing in their final game.
On 5-2-56 40+ P Ellis Kinder and 40+ C Walker Cooper of the Cards played in the same game but not as a battery. Kinder pitched the top of the 9th against the Pirates. He was pinch-hit for in the bottom of the 9th. Going into the top of the 10th Jackie Collum came in to pitch and Cooper replaced C Bill Sarni.
Rip Sewell and Johnny Riddle had a similar close call on 6-20-48 when Sewell started and was shelled, not making it out of the second inning. With the Pirates trailing 7-0 after two, Riddle spelled Buc catcher Ed Fitz Gerald, entering the game to start the 3rd inning.
Also, Charlie Hough and Carlton Fisk played numerous times in the same game, but never as a battery. In Hough starts, Fisk would get the day off or play DH or first base. On several occasions, Fisk moved from 1B to C at the same time Hough was removed from the game. Evidently, Fisk wanted no part of Hough’s knuckler, and his manager agreed.
For the Pepper Martin question, the lowest number of runs I can find scored by a player reaching base at least 200 times in a season is 43 (Ray Knight in 1983 and Tim Jordan in 1907). Could the answer be those two, or are we looking for an even lower total?
There is a lower Runs total if you include ROE in the reached based totals.
Oh, good grief…that was much simpler! I had no idea TOBwe was a searchable stat. That produced the answer in seconds: Chico Carrasquel with 41 runs in 1951. I spent a lot more time than that last night adding H+BB+HBP. That produced several totals in the 190s for players who scored fewer than 50 runs, so I figured I was missing some stat (I thought maybe reaching base on a fielder’s choice), but nothing was apparent. Thanks for the tip, Doug!
Mark Koening question: 1978 World Series.
That is correct.
Both Bucky Dent and Bill Russell batted .400 for the 1978 series. The year before, the same two shortstops hit a combined .200 (9 for 45) in the Fall Classic.
Nettles, Campanella, Eckersley.
Killebrew, Campanella, Brown
Murray, Reuschel, Winfield
Questions re Chuck Klein. Anybody know much about him? He seems to have had little support for the HOF from the BBWA, but the veterans committee voted him in. What’s the story with that?
Anyone care to speculate as to why he is getting little support here?
I think a lot has to do with offensive context. To me, Klein is an inferior Larry Walker. He’s got great offensive stats, but he produced them in one of the biggest offensive boom periods in baseball history, and he did it while largely playing his home games in one of the most offensively-tilted stadiums of all time, the Baker Bowl.
Of course, he’s not all a product of era and ballpark; a 137 career OPS+ over just under 7,200 PA’s is still impressive. But he doesn’t add any positional or defensive value, and it’s hard to ignore his galling splits (career .813 road OPS compared to his 1.028 home OPS).
The Walker-Klein comparison is the easy one to make since they both spent considerable time in extreme hitters’ parks. But Walker obviously had a much more diverse skill set.
I looked for recent players who 1) had similar WAR, 2) had similar career length, 3) were poor defensively, 4) put up video game offensive numbers.
I came up with two players. Albert Belle and Juan Gonzalez.
Neither has the extreme home-road split that Klein does but I think those comps work better than Walker.
Klein was, yeah, like Larry Walker, but he was also like George Sisler. Halfway through his career he suffered an injury—Sisler’s problem was an eye condition—after which he was never the same. He’d been traded to the Cubs after his triple crown year—sold, really—and was expected to produce in Chicago in a big way. Which he did: until the injury, he was among the league leaders in all his usual departments, even though he no longer had the Baker Bowl as home base.* Pride and pressure from the club combined to do him in—back in those days you gutted it out in the first place, and baseball management generally and the Cubs specifically wanted an immediate return on a four players plus $65,000 investment. He stayed in the lineup for two months before he went on the disabled list, never really got good treatment—there wasn’t any for severely torn muscles inflamed daily for eight weeks—and went from being an elite player to being a good player for a few years and then a shadow of himself.
After the injury, not before, he did hit 4 home runs in a 1936 game—not at the Baker Bowl, but in cavernous Forbes Field, just missing a fifth—and in 1939, playing for the Pirates, had a 21 game hitting streak, batting .412 with 5 HRS and 14 RBIs.
*From his bio: “During the first two months of the 1934 season {41 Games} . . . he hit .333 with an OPS well over 1.000 . . . with 38 runs scored, 14 home runs and 40 RBI.”
nsb, interesting about Klein’s injury problems and his “stick it out” behavior with the Cubs. I didn’t actually know about that.
Still, even before then, his home/road splits were pretty eye-popping. In that 1933 triple crown year, he had a 1.305 OPS at home and a .774 OPS on the road.
But a lot of people got to play in hitters parks in the 1930’s, and very few of them reached heights as lofty as Klein at his apex. David P compared Klein to Albert Belle, which is even more apt given the injury. Both guys were legitimately great hitters who produced insane numbers during fecund offensive periods, didn’t provide much value outside of their bat, and had their careers shortened/talent sapped by injuries.
Klein’s overall OPS for 1933 was 1.025. The difference between his home OPS and overall OPS was .280, the most for a player with at least 400 PA. Second is Willie McCovey with a difference of .268 and third is Belle with .251.
So, any thoughts on why he was not considered HOF worthy by the BBWA, but he made it in through the veterans committee?
Perhaps it was just sympathy for an injured comrade who at one time was among the elite?
Joseph – His SABR bio mentioned a couple of factors, chief among them a letter writing campaign started by a Philadelphia school teacher, who often recruited his students to write letters as well. That campaign was eventually combined with a campaign by Klein’s sister-in-law.
Around that same time, Richard Nixon – an honorary member of the BBWAA – named his all-time team and included Klein as a backup outfielder for the NL (pre 1945).
Joseph:
See my comment at #34. Didn’t make the sidebar. Hope this does.
@24;
There’s some interesting stories about Klein in Donald Honig’s great interview book of players between the wars: ‘Baseball When the Grass Was Real’. Sorry, can’t remember in which player’s chapter they are.
Bill James wrote in his HOF book that once Hack Wilson was picked by the Veteran’s Committee in 1979, there was no way they couldn’t justify _not_ inducting Klein, which they did the next year.
His career AIR (offensive context) in B-R is 110, which is high, but not close to the highest I’ve see:
Todd Helton – 122
Dante Bichette – 117
Larry Walker – 116
Manny Ramieriz – 111
I read that he was a decent right fielder, despite what B-R says. Park illusion may again be in play here. He could also steal a few bases (led the NL once, though with only 20).
In summation, while Klein was an outstanding player and presents a fascinating “what if?” scenario with his serious injury (similar to Sisler), he doesn’t really belong in the HOF, and is well off the COG radar.
Lawrence – I think the comparison that James makes is to players like Chick Hafey (1971) and Ross Youngs (1972) (and possibly other friends of Frisch), which explains why Hack Wilson and Chuck Klein were elected. And why there are people who push for Ken Williams and Babe Herman and Lefty O’Doul to be elected.
I think Sisler is a different case than Klein. As NSB says, Klein had a career that should be remembered. But Sisler … he’s like Koufax. In the three years before his injury he was 719 for 1799 – that’s a .39966 batting average. Over 3 years. His OPS+ was 164. He could field. He could run (led the AL in stolen bases and triples the two years before his injury). For those that like fancy stats like WAR, his was 24.2 over those 3 years, and 43.0 from 1917-1922 (42.9 if you take away his pitching WAR, though for his career he was +2.5 pitching WAR). The 6 year numbers are VERY close to Koufax’s numbers, particularly if one is inclined to include Koufax’s hitting (44.2 WAR including his hitting).
Artie Z:
Whether or not Wilson and Klein were good choices, and whether or not they their elections to the Hall were modeled after those of the Friends of Frisch, the fact is that they, and especially Klein, were powerhouses impossible to ignore in their own time. I would refine the argument to say that if Chick Hafey, et al, were deemed Hall-worthy, then Wilson and Klein, who between them led the NL eight consecutive years in home runs and—especially Klein—put up monster offensive totals in other ways, well, they were so superior to the FoFs that it was an embarrassment not to vote them in. If nothing more, the whole thing indicates what horrible choices the FoFs were as a group, except possibly Youngs, whose career was incomplete.
@82/AZ;
I didn’t mean that George Sisler was similar in value/all-time rankings to Klein. Sisler was clearly a better player and quite HOF-worthy. I meant more how their career shapes are clearly split almost evenly into a ‘before the injury/condition’ and ‘after the injury/condition’ phase for both of them.
Ernie Banks also exhibits this sharply defined career shape.
You’re probably right about what Bill James wrote about why Klein (and Wilson) were selected by the Veteran’s Committee, I haven’t read it in a while. Using Friends Of Frankie Frisch such as Highpockets Kelly and Chick Hafey, you could easily justify several more non-HOF players of the 1920s/30s, including all of ones that you mentioned.
Using Friends of Frankie Frisch we could justify … I don’t know, Hunter Pence if we’re using the lowest common denominator approach 🙂
@92/AZ:
Pence IS about as good as several of the FOFF, and not that much worse than the rest.
Using the JAWS HOF ratings on B-R, comparing Hunter Pence’s rating to the so-called ‘Friends of Frankie Frisch’:
PENSE: 79th in RF
…………….. (let the fun begin…)
1B:
Jim Bottomley: 54th
Highpockets Kelly: 85th
(the two lowest-ranked 1Bmen)
SS:
Travis Jackson: 29th – actually, not so bad
(ranks ahead of four SS)
3B:
Freddie Lindstrom: 70th
(the lowest-ranked 3Bmen)
LF:
Chick Hafey: 58th
(the lowest-ranked LFer, except for Monte Irvin, who didn’t debut in MLB till age 30 because of the color line)
CF:
Hack Wilson: 40th
Lloyd Waner: 113th (kind of a stretch, but Frisch was his manager for the Pirates in 1940 and 1941)
(lowest and 3rd lowest-ranked CFers)
RF:
Ross Youngs: 66th (to be fair, as #90 above pointed out, more of a Addie Joss ‘What If?’ case whose career was cut well short by illness, then death)
Pitcher:
Jess Haines: 296th – of course, there’s a lot more pitchers in the HOF than any one position – equivalent to ?90th? amongst position players))
Irrelevant but fascinating factoids: Mike Trout ranks 77th in CF after just three full years, even more impressive when you consider that JAWS uses a SEVEN year peak. Kenny Lofton, ranked 9th amongst CFers, got only 3.2% of the HOF vote in 2013 and fell off the ballot. Bernie Williams, ranked 26th amongst CFers and a big part of one of the best teams in MLB history, fell off the HOF ballot this year.
@97;
Correction – I re-read the ‘Friends Of Frankie Frisch’ section of Bill James’ book on the HOF last night. Not only was Hack Wilson _not_ a ‘Friend Of Frankie Frisch’, Frisch didn’t really like him as a player, didn’t think that belonged in the HOF.
And Artie Z, in #82 – you are precisely correct; James argues that the selections of Hafey, Lindstrom, Highpockets Kelly et al made it impossible to ignore Hack Wilson and Chuck Klein.
Related question – what is the last truly questionable selection by the Veteran’s Committee – Maz in 2001? If not Maz, then Rizzuto in 1994? I’m not considering Negro League or non-player selections.
Actually, over the past 30 years or so I think the Veterans Committee has done at least as good a job as the BBWAA. They’ve fixed many of the worst of the writer’s omissions- Santo, Vaughan, George Davis- and most of their picks meet the good-as-the-average-HOFer criteria.
I’d say that the 2 that you mentioned along with Rick Ferrell and Red Schoendienst are probably their worst picks in that time frame.
Meanwhile the BBWAA is still managing to regularly overlook well-qualified candidates while finding room for the likes of Catfish Hunter, Rollie Fingers, Bruce Sutter, Jim Rice and very nearly Jack Morris.
Catfish is an interesting case.
.
Certainly he doesn’t measure up using our current go-to stat of wins above the other guy.
He was 17th in WAR on the HOF ballot the year he was elected (in fact, about 12 percent of his WAR came from his hitting).
But his name is Catfish, first of all. Finley certainly helped him out with that one. Jim Hunter is probably not a hall of famer.
And Hunter was the first free-agent. And he arrived there through a contract dispute (contract nullified by an arbitrator).
There’s a key piece of history.
And he certainly made the effort to be worth the money. Nobody but Neikro has topped his 328 Innings in 1975.
And 5 World Series rings in 7 years. (and a key contributor in the first three).
Plenty in his narrative to justify the use of the word “fame.”
_____
Hunter had a HOF Monitor score of 134 which puts him in the “virtual cinch” for the HOF category. He was also elected on a weak ballot with only Santo having more than 65 career WAR. Compare that to last year when there were 14 players with over 65 WAR.
@97;
If you combine Red Schoendienst’s accomplishments as a player and manager (14 yrs w/Cardinals, 1965-1978; won WS in ’67, lost 7-game WS in ’68, also three 2nd-place finishes; overall 1041-955/ .522 W/L%), I think he’s a quite reasonable Veteran’s pick.
As just a player, Schoendienst is probably a little less qualified than Ernie Lombardi or Tony Lazzeri, also picked during the last 30 years.
I’d say the Ferrell and Rizzuto are the worst Veteran’s picks since 1984. I know that Maz has the worst JAWS score (50th amongst 2Bmen, but he’s got that ‘arguably the best defensively 2Bman of all time’ going for him.
When Catfish was elected to the HOF in 1987, I though he was a pretty solid HOF pick, but advanced analysis has opened up my eyes that he wasn’t quite the pitcher we thought he was. By JAWS, he’s 165th, and Jack Morris is 163rd. Morris has a longer career, lesser peak, and similar ERA+ (104 to 105, essentially the same), but they’re very comparable. Catfish had a nice peak from 1971-75, along with the CYA and 3 WS (+ two more w/the Yankees)put him over the top.
Lawrence #176 – Except voters aren’t allowed to consider dual accomplishments such as Schoendienst’s. That’s not to say they don’t do it, just that they’re not supposed to.
Killer, Murray, Eck
I assume it’s Killer or Eddie time?
Vote: Nettles, Campanella, and and and — not sure.
Nettles, Campanella, and Evans.
Murray, Ashburn, Evans
Eck, Ashburn, Ruffing
Murray, Minoso, Killebrew
Ashburn, Minoso, Campanella.
Mel Ott took aim at a fence 258 feet away in the Polo Grounds during Klein’s time in the Baker Bowl.
The Babe and Lou had that sweet porch in RF 295 feet away.
Chuck Klein took aim at a fence 280 feet away and 60 feet high.
Chuck Klein’s 9 year peak:
.339 / .396 / .586 / .982 / 149
With his less-than D, that was good for a 4.6 WAR average.
Yeah but to be fair for his career on the road Klein’s slugging percentage took over .150 point drop and his batting average was down nearly .070. And that’s without separating his years in Chicago when he actually hit better on the road than at home.
Ott did hit a lot more home runs in the Polo Grounds but because he hit a lot more doubles & triples on the road his slugging percentage only fell off .048 and his batting average actually went up .014.
Murray, Brown, Ashburn
There are 7 second basemen in history who have more hits than Buddy Myer with a batting average over .300:
3315 / .333 … Collins
3243 / .338 … Nap
2930 / .358 … Hornsby
2880 / .316 … Frisch
2839 / .320 … Gehringer
2724 / .300 … Alomar
2345 / .304 … Herman
2131 / .303 … Buddy Myer
.
1836 / .310 … Cano*
1518 / .311 … Jackie Robinson
1508 / .302 … George Grantham
880 // .311 … Johnny Hodapp
630 // .302 … Jose Altuve*
301 // .304 … Duke Kenworthy
196 // .300 … Scooter Gennett*
Kruk called, he agrees you should differentiate all hitters into two groups based on his batting line.
Reuschel, Campanella, Ferrell
Harmon Killebrew, Eddie Murray, Dennis Eckersley
Nettles, Tiant, & Chuck Klein
I can’t separate Murray and Killebrew (I like both of them, but I count 9 1Bs and 4 DHs to 6 3Bs in the COG)… And Nettles is probably something like the 7th or 8th best third baseman. If you like balance, take his home runs + defense…
Hub Kid,
Re “I can’t separate Murray and Killebrew”. Since neither one of these guys did a Wes Parker imitation at 1B, let’s go with offensive peak. The tale of the tape:
Killebrew Murray
23-35 AGE 22-34
152 OPS+ 141
1,886 Games 1,975
7,980 PA 8,459
67.8 O-WAR 54.1
.264/.386/.537 .295/.375/.496
7.4/98 RC/Air 6.8/95
7.54 100 Air 7.16
.737 Off Win% .677
Killebrew, Eckersley, and Klein. And a shout-out to Bump Hadley because come on: Bump Hadley.
I’ve gotten used to getting a blank screen whenever submitting a reply for the past couple weeks. Tonight, though, has been a complete adventure. Only about half the time has a comment posted on my first attempt. One time a message appeared saying High Heat Stats couldn’t find the page I was looking for and asking if I’d like to search again.
On the plus side, Recent Comments have started to update faster – about 15 to 20 minutes now compared to 3 hours a little earlier this evening.
Aside from the comments glitches, which started for me before the upgrade, the website does seem to perform faster since the recent upgrade.
I’ve had all the same commenting problems that others have had. Though so far all of my comment have posted. Just to be on the safe side, I’ve taken to highlighting and copying my comments before I hit the submit button.
Not only are my Recent Comments being delayed (and by much more than 3 hours) but now my Recent Posts are being delayed. I found out about the 1904 Part 2 Balloting via a notice on my Facebook page. I then had to go back to HHS and enter the Post title into the search box to access it.
I’ve faced similar problems in recent weeks and thought it was just my browser. It’s relieving to hear I’m not the only one (though unfortunate for the site).
Just in case other people are experiencing this uncertainty, my solution is generally simple (if a bit annoying) – I just open another tab if/when I get the weird blank screen and load HHS main page and then see if my comment has been posted, if not, try again (I can hit the back button on the blank screen to get back to my comment).
I was also sometimes copying my comments to the clipboard before posting them so they wouldn’t be lost but I’ve also found (I’m on firefox) that if a comment is not posted and I go back to that thread through a new tab or even closing and opening firefox when it gets frozen, and click reply in the same place I was going to reply, my whole draft comment is preserved in the reply box. Hartvig in particular has mentioned a few times that he’s lost long comments, I know, so if this is the case for other people it may be beneficial to know. Not sure if that’s a browser or site function, but it has worked for me in the past.
My comments always (eventually) appear in the articles I post them on, but infrequently under “Recent Comments” (though my last two have).
Also, why do I have to type my name/E-mail every single time I post? I thought that the posting system here ‘remembered’ that info?
The recent comments seem to be updating in real time this evening.
I don’t recall having the issue you mentioned, Lawrence. My name and email are always there when I want to submit a comment.
Was the talent deeper then because of fewer teams or worse because of less scouting and segregation? Someone who was outstanding in a few areas but poor in others vs. someone really, really good in some areas and at least adequate in the rest?
For me I only see one that I’m certain belongs but about 10 more that are somewhere on the “maybe” continuum.
Campanella, Ferrell, Minoso
Ashburn Reuschel Klein
Killebrew, Ashburn, Nettles
Rick Reuschel, Kevin Brown, Red Ruffing. Let’s elect a pitcher this time, eh?
Bryan O’Connor says:
February 20, 2015 at 9:06 am (Edit)
Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals:
Brown 43.3
Reuschel 40.6
FerrellW 40.1
Tiant 37.5
Nettles 35.7
Evans 34.9
Eckersley 34.3
Ashburn 33.9
Murray 33.7
Ruffing 33.1
Killebrew 33.0
Winfield 31.1
Minoso 30.6
Klein 26.4
Myer 19.4
Campanella 19.2
Chuck Klein has black ink all over his B-R page, and I support his Hall of Fame candidacy despite what we know about the advantages he got from Baker Bowl and the offensive environment of his era. That said, he’s not particularly close to the CoG.
I’ll stick with Brown, Eckersley, and Nettles.
Some more info on Klein:
Set the NL record for HRs in 1929 at 43. Still holds the NL record for extra base hits in a season, 107(since tied by Bonds Jr), and the second highest, 103. Holds the NL record still for runs scored in a season, 158. That was in 1930, of course, when his 250 hits placed behind Bill Terry’s 254. These are the two highest totals in NL history. Klein’s total bases that year, 445, are second to Hornsby’s 450 in 1922 in NL reckoning. He is the only player other than Lou Gehrig to have over 400 total bases in a season 3 times. His 170 RBIs and 59 doubles in 1930 also hold second place in seasonal NL annals. He set the modern record for outfield assists in a season, 44 in 1930, had 29 in 1932. Led the league in stolen bases with 20, also in 1932.
Klein actually hit pretty well in Sportsman’s Park and Ebbets Field, not just the Baker Bowl, but he was terrible in Braves Field, Crosley Field, and the Polo Grounds, plus Shibe Park after the Phillies moved, but that was late in his career so it’s hard to evaluate. He actually hit better against the Cardinals in St. Louis than in Philadelphia.
Does he belong in the COG? No. Does he deserve better than to be dismissed as a mere product of the era and home park he played in? Absolutely.
“Does he deserve better than to be dismissed as a mere product of the era and home park he played in?”
That depends. Obviously, he was a MUCH-better-than-league-average player. But you CAN make him a COGer by not adjusting for era and park. Actually, I think it’s pretty convincing. He’s 45th in career OPS, which ain’t too shabby at all. Sure, only 7170 PAs – but, unadjusted, he’s Dick Allen, who definitely has his COG supporters.
Klein – .922 OPS in 7170 PAs
Allen – .912 OPS in 7315 PAs
The problem is, Klein is NOT Dick Allen. Allen’s OPS is 10 points lower, but his OPS+ is 20 points HIGHER. He was obviously a very talented player, and among the best in the game for a couple years. But his COG case IS a product of environment. I don’t see how, with adjusted numbers, you could possibly make a COG case for Klein.
Klein’s career road splits: .286/.346/.466 for an OPS of .813. Nice, but not elite.
@61/nsb;
One small correction: Todd Helton is now 2nd all-time for NL extra base hits in a season, 105 in 2001 (as well as 3rd with 103 in 2000).
Otherwise, a very good summation of the highlights of Klein’s career. Different eras and offensive contexts, but I’d compare him to Nomar Garciaparra or Don Mattingly – a great start to their career their first 5-6 full years, but not enough value outside of that to make them a truly serious HOF candidate. Since the career isn’t long enough, they are peak candidates, but the peak isn’t _quite_ good enough.
BTW, Klein JAWS ranking is 33rd as A RFer, not impressive but better than a number of position players in the HOF (27, but who’s counting? 🙂 ).
Murray, Ferrell, and Nettles
First update of the round, through Artie Z. @64, the 26th vote:
10 – Eddie Murray
8 – Richie Ashburn, Harmon Killebrew, Graig Nettles
7 – Dennis Eckersley
================25% (7)
6 – Roy Campanella
5 – Kevin Brown
4 – Dwight Evans, Minnie Minoso, Rick Reuschel, Red Ruffing
3 – Wes Ferrell, Chuck Klein
================10% (3)
2 – Luis Tiant, Dave Winfield
Oftentimes, when there’s an “open” round like this, someone comes out of nowhere to gain a tremendous amount of momentum. Harmon Killebrew and Eddie Murray were obviously going to be in the mix, but I thought someone else would enter themselves into the conversation. I thought that person was going to be Roy Campanella, as he’s done that exact thing before. I could’ve imagine Dennis Eckersley, because he’s had steady support and it’s been a million years since we elected a pitcher. I’m not surprised to see Graig Nettles’ name up there – that’s not even really a surprise, considering how hard some voters (Joseph, in particular) have campaigned for him. But I did NOT see Richie Ashburn coming. Ashburn has appeared on 12 COG ballots, collecting 5 votes once, 7 votes four times, 8 votes five times, and nine votes twice. He ALREADY has 8 votes. He will almost certainly set a personal high this round, and MAY even find himself in a position to get elected OR pick up an extra round of eligibility, which may be SORELY needed for the upcoming rounds. Fascinating.
It’s been 10 elections since we elected a pitcher (Ford, 1910.1 ballot), and when he went in he was the first in 9 ballots (Feller, 1917 ballot), so it has been a fallow stretch for pitchers – only 2 elected in the last 23 rounds.
On the other hand, just before the current 2-23 stretch, 5 of 8 electees were pitchers (Roberts, Marichal, Smoltz, Koufax, Spahn).
Brown would have been another possible candidate, based on past voting records. He had a 14 ballot stretch where he only fell below 13 votes once and got as many as 18. There is a pretty strong ✖ Brown contingent however so that might be his ceiling. Or not.
But this is one reason that I think it’s important to have a dozen or more holdovers as often as possible. Sometimes after a couple of guys that have been on the ballot for a while finally get in it turns out that someone you least expected had been a lot of peoples fourth choice that have now moved up a couple of notches while the perennial 1st runner up turns out to have already maxed out the support they are going to see.
Killebrew, Minoso and Reuschel
Murray to win
K. Brown for 25%
Nettles to stay on the ballot
Killebrew, Murray, Winfield
Murray, Killebrew, Eckersley
Murray, Winfield, Klein
Killebrew, Ashburn, and Klein
Campanella, Minoso, Tiant
murray, tiant, nettles
Koenig and Martin had oldtimers cards with my 1981-season Strat-O-Matic set.
I’ll sick with the three I’ve done for a while…
EMurray
Killebrew
Minoso
Winfield, Miñoso, Evans.
I’ll take the guys currently in 3rd, 4th, and 5th place.
Vote:
Richie Ashburn
Dennis Eckersley
Graig Nettles
Ferrell, Campanella, Nettles
Murray, Nettles, Tiant
For the win: Eddie Murray
Extra cushion round: Saturnino Orestes Armas Minoso
Stay on the COG ballot: Dwight Evans
So I’ve got Minnie, Dewey, and Eddie.
Unfortunately the only Huey I could find on B-R was James Huey Walkup who was born in 1895 who’s career consisted of 2 games.
So it looks like Dewey (Evans) and Louie (Tiant) will never find their Huey.
Though they would likely fall short of the COG (not even sure if we’re going back to the 1860s birth years) there are a couple HOFers in Hughie Jennings and Hugh Duffy.
Jennings and Duffy played the wide majority of their major league careers in the 19th century, and thus fall outside the scope of the Circle of Greats voting as currently conceived. Perhaps once we fill up the planned contingent of the COG, we can do a 19th Century Concentric Circle of Greats.
Jennings’ 1869 birth year or the year before might be the last (or first) with a COG-eligible player. Monte Cross was born that year and played almost exactly half his career (by Games and PA) in the 20th century (since 1901). Jack McCarthy was also born in 1869 and played most of his career since 1901.
Frank Bowerman, born in 1868, played mostly since 1901. Cy Young was born in 1867 and played a bit less than half his career (by Games and IP) in the 20th century. Same story for Kid Gleason, born in 1866. So, Bowerman may be the oldest COG-eligible player.
1901 rather than 1900 would seem the right start point for the 20th century since it coincides with the debut of the modern major leagues.
@112 Doug –
I think Cy Young could be considered for the COG. He was born in 1867. The better half of his career was in the 19th century, true… but he had a COG career in the 1900s, even WITHOUT the 1800s counting at all (80 WAR from 1900 forward). He may merit consideration. PLUS, he was voted in by the BBWAA. It would seem odd to me for us to mimic the BBWAA and then not consider a player whom they DID elect.
Indeed, for the reasons Dr. Doom describes, Cy Young and Willie Keeler have always been my guides to how far back we should go in terms of the “20th Century players” who should be eligible for the COG. Both were elected by the BBWAA, both represent the furthest back the BBWAA ever went in inducting anyone, and both had careers that were very evenly balanced in terms of major league seasons/PAs/IPs in the 19th vs. 20th century. So both will be eligible for the COG. And those with a comparable dividing line should be eligible as well. Anyone with much heavier weight than that on the 19th century side of their careers I expect to treat as not eligible for the core COG voting.
There will be a few gray-area guys that will be subject to debate on their eligibility, but that’s the basic approach. George Davis is a guy the BBWAA did not elect, but he has a similar 19th/20th century dividing line to Cy and Wee Willie, so I think he should probably be eligible. Birth year itself will not be determinative. For example, guys in Cy Young’s birth year will not be eligible just because Cy is eligible. They would only be eligible if they also had a career that had as much 20th century presence as Cy’s did (which means nobody besides Cy in his birth year).
birtelcom,
Your post is one of the reasons I’m glad you started giving the rounds a number, rather than just putting the year. I think your solution is a good one: when it gets down to it, judging by the player and his era, not the birth year.
I can’t wait to see what sort of weird system we’ll be using those last few rounds. But we’ll find out in good time, I suppose, but that’s still like almost a year away (40-odd weeks, anyway)!
Perhaps bottle-bat wielding hughie critz?
How about Hughie Jennings?
Pardon the redundant post; when I posted last night, this thread was “stuck” on post 104, and didn’t update with the last 20 or so posts until just now, many, many hours later. Hmm.
Killebrew, Nettles, Ruffing.
My unofficial vote tally for Thursday AM, through MikeD @110, the 41st vote:
18 – Eddie Murray
14 – Harmon Killebrew, Graig Nettles
=============================25% (11)
10 – Richie Ashburn
9 – Dennis Eckersley, Minnie Minoso
8 – Roy Campanella
6 – Kevin Brown, Dwight Evans
5 – Chuck Klein, Rick Reuschel, Red Ruffing, Luis Tiant, Dave Winfield
=============================10% (5)
4 – Wes Ferrell
Most votes ever for Richie Ashburn already. Also, Minnie Minoso is polling unusually well. He already has 9 votes, which is what he usually gets for the whole week, and there are five days of voting left. His best was his first ballot (17 votes), and since then he’s managed 12 once, 11 once, 10 a couple of times, and all the rest in single digits.
I would love to see Nettles make it past 25% to get an extra round. 1903 has some great players, including Gehrig–and I would expect him to get named on nearly all the ballots.
How about with Gehrig, Ruth, Cobb, Speaker, Wagner, Mathewson, Hornsby, Young, Lajoie, and Johnson we just put them in without a vote? It will give the other players a chance.
😉
Okay–I’m joking.
Murray would be cruising to victory if it weren’t for people whose names/initials starts with H, M and S. They’re a baffling 0-12 in voting for Murray, whereas the rest of the group is 19-31.
Weird.
Granted that group has also basically ignored Killer, with only 3 of the 12 voting for him. Five of them have voted for Nettles, who has snuck into 2nd place for now.
Well, as an M voter, my own thought process is not baffling to me.
Killer hasn’t gotten my vote because I don’t intend to put him in. In my personal list, he’s out behind enough guys that I doubt I will ever vote for him, except maybe as a strategic decision to put him in and spread out his supporter’s votes.
Murray hasn’t gotten my vote mostly due to circumstance he’s closer to my in line — and somebody I would vote to keep on the ballot. But strategically there were always other players under pressure or close to 25%/win that I valued more.
In my personal COG, he’s one of the first out — in practice, we’ve already elected a few guys I had behind him, and roundly dismissed a few I had ahead, so he’s definitely in the mix for my support, depending on who else gets dropped. I plan to vote for him if he’s live for the win against someone I have him ahead of, and I also plan to vote for him if he’s in danger of dropping off or losing a round and there aren’t three people I consider better in the same situation.
For whatever reason, Murray has had enough support that he has never needed my help to clear the 7 vote baseline.
Killer is really in the same group (guys I have out, but could put in if enough of my choices aren’t happening), but he’s got so much support there is no danger of him dropping off the ballot before that becomes clear.
Thanks Michael Sullivan! BTW, when I said “baffling”, I meant it in terms of baffling that there’s a correlation between voting patterns and first initial of voters. 🙂
Joseph @ 115 –
I made a similar (and similarly facetious) suggestion some time back, that we simply put everyone with 100+ WAR in the CoG by acclamation, and get on to the real voting. So add Alexander, Collins, and Grove to your list….
Okay, I’ll go with that, David. Except for those who played after 2000–those whose reputations might be tainted by the PED problem.
Which would leave off B.Bonds, ARod, Clemens, G. Maddux, and R.Johnson.
I’m not saying they should not get in–I’m saying that they should be voted on because some people might have an issue with them.
Brown, Ferrell, Nettles
Killebrew, Murray and Winfield
So, I usually have a pretty easy voting method, though I haven’t cast a ballot for a bit. I tend to do, IMHO, the best pitcher, the best position player, and either a personal hobby horse or a guy who needs support to stay eligible.
For the time being:
Wes Ferrell (eligibility vote)
Kevin Brown (best pitcher)
Graig Nettles (best position player, edging out Ashburn and Evans)
Klein, Winfield, Murray
Graig Nettles trade analysis…
Nettles came up through the Minnesota organization.
Third baseman (with a bit of second).
Those spots were filled by Killebrew and Carew.
Killer, of course, was a flex player at this stage, occupying both 3rd and 1st.
Still, Nettles was blocked, because Rich Reese came out of nowhere in 1969 and batted .322 at the First Base position.
Nettles was traded before the 1970 season to Cleveland, along with a replacement level centerfielder (Ted Uhlander), an effective reliever/swingman (Bob Miller), and the last remnants of Dean Chance …….. for Stan Williams and Luis Tiant.
Tiant had just followed up
21-9, 1.60 with
9-20, 3.71
Tiant was effective, but hurt his arm and put in half a season.
Minnesota released him.
With his fastball gone, Tiant remarkably reinvented himself in Boston.
Stan Williams delivered a 10-1, 1.99 in 68 games of relief, and was traded for bits and pieces the following year.
_____
The Cleveland team, after getting three excellent years out of their young, durable, powerful, defensively terrific third baseman, traded him to the Yankees for John Ellis, Jerry Kenney, Charlie Spikes, and Rusty Torres.
* Ellis was young, and gave them a few league-average years as C/1B.
* Kenney was hyped in New York as the next Tony Kubek. Never developed a bat, offered some good defense at 3B, but for some reason only played five games in Cleveland and was done.
* Spikes was a power/strikeout prospect who gave the Naps a replacement level effort in RF.
* Torres was also a prospect who didn’t pan out. Was later the PTBNL that brought Cleveland their next manager, Frank Robinson.
Voomo – Spikes was considered the key player from the Indians’ perspective. He was considered a “can’t miss” prospect and it’s easy to see why – a .988 OPS in AA at age 21.
After age 23, per B-Ref Similarity scores to Charlie Spikes (11th pick in the draft overall)
974 Ron Swoboda
967* Dave Winfield
963 Ruppert Jones
962 Steve Kemp
960 Corey Patterson
959 Jim Wynn
959 Reggie Smith
958 Roger Maris
954 Junior Felix
954 Travis Snider
A mix of excellent ball players as well as some guys who were perceived as promising but disappointed….
Nettles was traded from the Indians to the Yankees while Gabe Paul was the Indians’ GM. Paul already knew that he (Paul) would shortly become a part of the new Yankee ownership. He joked that he traded Nettles to himself.
Don’t forget that Cesar Tovar was also with Minnesota at 3rd among a number of positions. A pretty strong player–and probably would have prevented Nettles from getting playing time.
I was surprised to see that Killebrew played 138 games at 3rd in 1970. I thought he had slowed down by then.
BTW, the Nettles trade made perfect sense from Cleveland’s perspective since they had a “ready replacement” in Buddy Bell. And they figured they were getting 2-4 starters in exchange for Nettles.
Interesting. Bell was blocked on the infield (3B/2B in the minors), and played RF/CF his age-20 rookie season.
Quite the parallel between Nettles and Bell.
PA
10228
10009
WAR
68.0
66.1
Slash
.248 / .329 /.421 / .750 / 110
.279 / .341 / .406 / .747 / 109
R-Slash
102 / -03 / 140
110 / -17 / 174
What’s interesting about the ’72-73 Indians is how many under age 27 players they had who went on to play in subsequent World Series for other teams.
Ray Fosse: 73-74 A’s
Chris Chambliss: 76-78 Yankees
Graig Nettles: 76-78, 81 Yankees, 84 Padres
Del Unser: 80 Phillies
John Lowenstein: 79, 83 Orioles
Dick Tidrow: 76-78 Yankees
Milt Wilcox: 84 Tigers
George Hendrick: 82 Cardinals
Oscar Gamble: 76, 81 Yankees
I think I got everyone. The ’73 teams also had Alan Ashby who never made the WS but did play in two playoff series for the Astros.
brown , winfield, nettles
Vote change! Nettles is a bit too close to Murray for my comfort and Tiant needs a bit of help. So dropping Nettles for Tiant.
Murray, Brown, Ashburn
Brown
Killebrew
And sure, Murray.
Sunday AM Vote Update! This takes us through aweb @146, the 48th ballot cast:
22 – Eddie Murray
16 – Harmon Killebrew, Graig Nettles
=======================25% (12)
11 – Richie Ashburn, Kevin Brown
9 – Dennis Eckersley, Minnie Minoso
8 – Roy Campanella, Dave Winfield
6 – Dwight Evans, Wes Ferrell, Chuck Klein, Luis Tiant
5 – Rick Reuschel, Red Ruffing
=======================10% (5)
Murray appears to be coasting to victory. It’s not quite guaranteed yet, but barring a Molitor-esque situation, it’s pretty well in the bag.
Likewise, Killebrew and Nettles are all but assured of 25%. Each could probably use one more vote, but they’re unlikely to even need two (the last time 17 votes would’ve been required for 25% was nine rounds ago).
Ashburn and Brown are both right near the 25% line; will either clear that hurdle?
Red Ruffing is the player most in trouble right now, with no rounds of eligibility stored up and very close to that 10% mark. Rick Reuschel at least has two rounds stored up, so he’s in no danger of falling off completely. The group at 6 could use another vote each before the end of the round if they’re to stay eligible, as all but Luis Tiant are on the bubble.
Minnie Minoso has passed away.
It’s sad that the Veteran’s Committee for the Hall of Fame passed on the chance this past year to honor him while he was still alive.
Ashburn
Winfield
Ferrell
I confess I’m bewildered by the wave of support that Nettles is receiving. Who’s next? Darrell Evans? Ron Cey? Buddy Bell? All of these players had absolutely outstanding careers, and they also have arguments (particularly Evans and Bell) for being among the most underrated players in living memory. But we have a very limited amount of spots remaining in the COG and I’m struggling to understand the logic behind including Nettles. He was an outstanding fielder. No argument from me at all there. But he simply did not hit enough to warrant inclusion given that he wasn’t a SS or a catcher. Yes, 390 HR. But that’s basically the extent of his offensive contribution given his way-below-average batting average and OBP. Despite all the HR, his SLG% also is surprisingly low. If we were going to vote an underrated 3B in, for me it would be Ken Boyer; he had less longevity but a more impressive peak, especially offensively.
The other thing I find surprising about the support Nettles has garnered recently is that he fell off the rolls for a very, very long time. I could be mistaken on this, but haven’t we even had redemption rounds where other players were selected over him? Unless his support is being generated by new voters, I’d be authentically curious to hear from someone who passed on Nettles the first (or second, or third) time why they’re voting for him now.
(And for the record, as a Yankee fan of a certain generation, I love Nettles.)
I am also a long time Yankee fan and I agree with you about Nettles. I remember too many occasions when he had a really bad offensive stretch. It reached a point when I utterly gave up on him getting a hit.
Several points Paget:
1) There are simply no surefire candidates on this ballot. Every single candidate is flawed in someway. You think Ashburn, Ferrell, and Winfield are superior to Nettles. That’s fine. But there’s simply no way to prove it.
2) Voters are forced to vote for 3 candidates, or not vote at all. Some voters may not believe that Nettles belongs in the COG, but don’t see anyone more worthy of a vote.
3) Much of what you wrote about Nettles vote surge could just have easily been written about Ashburn. In the last Redemption Round, where Ashburn regained ballot status, he was tied with Drysdale. Drysdale’s no longer on the ballot, while Ashburn currently has 12 votes.
The Redemption Ballot before that Ashburn finished behind all of the following: Nettles, Reuschel, Ted Simmons, Reggie Smith, Sutton, Tiant, Wilhelm, Winfield, Drysdale, and Dick Allen. He was tied with McGwire, Randolph and Palmiero.
@151/David P,
1)It’s not really a question of “proof” — according to the indices that I value, Nettles doesn’t measure up. I’m curious to hear someone discuss Nettles’ value in light of the critiques I brought to bear in my comment.
2)Fair enough.
3)Nettles’ case is substantially different than Ashburn’s. Ashburn was on the ballot much longer than Nettles before falling off, and has pretty consistently maintained the same level of support. This round he has a couple more votes than usual, but nothing too shocking in the way of an upswing. Right now Nettles is at what 35%? That’s a huge lift in his support for a guy who’s been passed over not only when he first came on the ballot but also in redemption rounds.
Personally, I don’t see Ashburn ever getting elected. Which is a real shame, since, as I’ve said many times there’s no way to defend Lofton’s election and not include Ashburn (I think they both should be in). But with this level of support, Nettles seems to stand a real shot. And that perplexes me. I have a lot more reason to be personally invested in Nettles than, say, Ken Boyer, but I can’t see Nettles as better. (And I suspect that some of Nettles’ support must have to do with personal attachment.)
I’m still curious to hear from people who have come around on him. I’m not uninterested in die-hard supporters’ positions, but am more curious about what has turned former doubters.
Lots of people on this site value WAR.
Of the players who have been eligible for election, the only ones with more career WAR than Nettles who haven’t been elected are Palmiero, Kevin Brown and Eddie Murray.
We know why Palmiero was passed over. Meanwhile Murray, Brown, and Nettles are virtually indistinguishable in career WAR (68.3, 68.1, and 68.0). Actually Ruffing also has more (70.4) but is hurt by the way it’s split between pitching and hitting. Nettles also led the AL twice in WAR. I’m pretty sure no one else on this ballot can claim that.
As for Ashburn being on the ballot longer, you have to take into consideration that they came onto the ballot at very different times. Nettles came onto a stacked ballot that included Seaver, Carlton, and Ryan. I’m actually surprised he survived that ballot. Ashburn came on when there were no stand out candidates. And he’s barely survived several times.Definite apples and oranges comparison.
As for Nettles “upswing” so far he’s gained 4 votes relative to last round. Ashburn’s gained 3. Personally I fail to see a difference.
@159,
Agreed that Ashburn/Nettles is an apples/oranges comparison. I don’t mean this to come off as testy really, but you’re the one who introduced that comparison, not I. That’s why I brought up other 3B as comparisons.
WAR is certainly something I pay attention to (though consider less infallible than many, especially when it comes to defense, which is where Nettles accumulates the majority of his RAA). So, let’s confine ourselves to WAR: what about Buddy Bell? And Ken Boyer? Two players pretty roundly rejected. Boyer, for one, managed to pack roughly the same amount of WAR into a sensational 9 year peak. Nettles needed 2000 more PA.
Bear in mind, I’m not saying the Nettles is inferior to these other 3B we’re talking about here (except for Boyer, and, as much as I admire him, I can live without Boyer in the COG).
I don’t disagree with you Paget but these are the decisions we’re being asked to make. We’re not, for example, being asked whether or not Lou Gehrig belongs. Of course he belongs and everyone knows it.
We’re being asked about the borderlines cases. The group, for better or for worse, has decided that Nettles is more worthy than Bell or Boyer or Santo. It’s not necessarily justifiable but we have to fill the last slots of the COG with someone and we can’t fit all the borderlines cases in. And I guarantee you that if Bell (or Boyer) was on the ballot right now and Nettles wasn’t someone would bring up why them and not Nettles?
Killebrew, Minoso, Winfield.
Campy, Minoso, Evans
RIP Minnie.
Just found out about Minnie. He may not be in the Hall of Fame, but he will always be remembered for his love for the game. Descanse en Paz.
For the 1904-Part 2 election, I’m voting for:
-Dave Winfield
-Eddie Murray
-Dennis Eckersley
Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Killebrew
-Brown
-Reuschel
-Tiant
-Evans
-Nettles
-Ashburn
winfield, brown,nettles — no personal attachment except maybe to mr may , who once spent an hour more than he had to answering questions from an incentive group of old farts, ( your correspondent among them)
Winfield nettles brown
Just posted successfully on my phone. Couldn’t make it work after several tries with my Mac. Hope it was just me and not the site
OK, so I don’t know what the heck I’m doing anymore because these players all seem to have blemishes and leave me unenthusiastic.
Ashburn Ranked 11th in CF by JAWS
Nettles Ranked 12th at 3B by JAWS
Murray, 14th at IB by JAWS
Evans, 15th in RF by JAWS
Killer: Ranked 19th at IB by JAWS
Winfield 19th at RF by JAWS
Minoso 22nd in LF by JAWS
Campanella 25th C by JAWS
Chuck Klein 33rd in RF by JAWS
Wes Ferrell 39th SP by JAWS
Reuschel 45th SP by JAWS
Brown 46th SP by JAWS
Ruffing 50th SP by JAWS
Tiant 51st SP by JAWS
Eckersley–hybrid.
What does this mean? I have no idea. The pitchers are so tightly lumped together I don’t find a meaningful distinction. Is a 45th-ranked pitcher better than a 11th ranked CF? Ferrell (and Ruffing) got an important amount of value out of their hitting. Killer is lumped with IB, but played more than half his career at 3B and OF. I have already expressed lack of enthusiasm for Murray
Killer, Tiant, and, out of respect, Minoso
Vote Change:
From
Ashburn
Eckersley
Nettles
To
Minoso
Murray
Nettles
____________
My votes for Eck and Ash are inconsequential.
Might as well give Eddie the buffer, because I prefer him to Killer.
And R.I.P. to the Cuban Comet.
Brown, Reuschel, Ruffing.
Richie Ashburn – Eddie Murray – Wes Ferrell
Campanella, Ashburn, Eckersley
The Cuban Comet (RIP Minnie), Winfield, Eck.
Reuschel, Nettles, Murray
One to keep his extra round, one to get an extra round, and one for the win. No real standout this ballot (they do all have flaws) but Steady Eddie’s 3200 hits/500 HR, durability and consistency are getting hard to ignore. The next 10 elections are going to have significantly better candidates to evaluate.
Killer, Minnie, Campy
Murray, Eckersley, Campanella
Only today and tomorrow remain. Nonetheless, here’s your update (through The Diamond King @172, the 61st vote):
27 – Eddie Murray
19 – Harmon Killebrew
18 – Graig Nettles
===================25% (16)
15 – Minnie Minoso
13 – Richie Ashburn, Kevin Brown, Dave Winfield
12 – Roy Campanella, Dennis Eckersley
8 – Wes Ferrell
7 – Dwight Evans, Rick Reuschel, Luis Tiant
===================10% (7)
6 – Chuck Klein, Red Ruffing
Klein and Ruffing still need at least one more vote if they’re to stick around. Minnie Minoso (RIP) is VERY close to the 25% mark. Murray’s a lock at this point.
I’m going with a bit of game theory.
Nettles, Tiant, Winfield.
Doom, I think you may have double-counted BryanM’s vote @158 and @160, as by my count you have one too many ballots, and an extra vote for each of Brown, Nettles, and Winfield.
If I’m correct, then, after Low T’s vote @174 the standings after 61 ballots are:
27 Murray
19 Killebrew
18 Nettles
===================25%
15 Minoso
13 Ashburn, Winfield
12 Brown, Campanella, Eckersley
8 Ferrell, Tiant
7 Evans, Reuschel
===================10%
6 Klein, Ruffing
Brown, Tiant, Nettles
David Horwich @175 was correct. I double-counted BryanM, and he probably shouldn’t get two votes… but I didn’t double-count 158 and 160. I double-counted 137 and 158. I’ve fixed it now, so here’s an update through Doug’s vote:
27 – Eddie Murray
19 – Harmon Killebrew, Graig Nettles
===================25% (16)
15 – Minnie Minoso
13 – Kevin Brown, Richie Ashburn, Dave Winfield
12 – Roy Campanella, Dennis Eckersley
9 – Luis Tiant
8 – Wes Ferrell
7 – Dwight Evans, Rick Reuschel
===================10% (7)
6 – Chuck Klein, Red Ruffing
Evans, Reuschel, Ashburn
I’m off the grid for the next day or so, so look to David Horwich’s and Dr. Doom’s updates for the latest voting updates. I’ll update the spreadsheet as soon as I can.
That’s a lot of pressure… I’ll do my best!
Since everybody I’m seriously considering is safely clear:
Murray, Nettles, Minoso
Reminder:
Today is the LAST DAY of voting! Get your votes in before midnight tonight if you’d like them to be counted!
Quick update – I don’t have time to post the full leaderboard, but here are the highlights: Murray’s a lock to win; Nettles and Killebrew are safely above 25% with 20 and 19 votes, respectively; Minnie Minoso is at EXACTLY 25%, with 16/64 votes right now; Chuck Klein and Red Ruffing are both below the 7 vote mark, and since both are on the bubble, they will fall off if the do not receive another vote. Best of luck over the next 12.75 hours, voters!
Here are the current totals, through 64 votes:
28 – Eddie Murray
20 – Graig Nettles
19 – Harmon Killebrew
16 – Minnie Minoso
===================25% (16)
14 – Richie Ashburn
13 – Kevin Brown, Dave Winfield
12 – Roy Campanella, Dennis Eckersley
9 – Luis Tiant
8 – Dwight Evans, Wes Ferrell, Rick Reuschel
===================10% (7)
6 – Chuck Klein, Red Ruffing
I was going to post a far meaner comment, but I’ll just say this: Minnie Minoso was, by all accounts, a good person and a heck of a ballplayer, and nobody was happy to see him pass on. With that out of the way, he’s maaaaaaybe the tenth-best player on the ballot. I don’t know why people voted for him before, and I don’t know why people are voting for him now, as if doing so will somehow honor his legacy.
Well, I missed last round, so I’d better get in under the wire here. My methodology is to rank all the ballot candidates on four measures – WAR, WAA+, JAWS and WAR*WAR/162G (*WAR/250IP for pitchers). Since last time I voted, Alomar and Cronin have gone in, and my favourite recent redemption guys (Cone and Drysdale) have fallen off. Anyway, here’s the cumulative ranking of the ballot, where a ‘4’ would indicate the guy is 1st in all 4 measures, and a ’56’ indicates he’s 14th in each:
Reuschel 9
Brown 9
Tiant 18
Nettles 23
Ferrell 25
Ruffing 25
Murray 27
Ashburn 30
Evans 30
Eckersley 33
Winfield 41
Killebrew 45
Minoso 48
Campanella 56
I see Killebrew is right up there in voting again, although on my rankings he’s only ahead of two guys that could definitely claim extra credit from the Negro Leagues. After the post-1903 wave settles down, I wonder if the absence of the ‘if Killebrew, why not Murray’ narrative that seemed to hold sway in the last few months will finally see Harmon elected, or if yet another better choice will come to light to those on the fence. I’ll maybe never be convinced of his overall value, but happy to respect the voters who see that value.
Either way, Murray was for a long time my borderline for the CoG. I think his incredible consistency, productivity, longevity all make him worthy, and I have no problems with him going in, even if I have a few guys ranked above him. I want to give him a sendoff vote at least. As for other votes, I’ve written off Minoso as not worthy in the past, but I’m starting to re-evaluate. And, of course, now is a fitting time to offer tribute to the guy. So I’ll lock him in for an extra round. Now, to save Ruffing… my rankings don’t give him any WAA+ credit for batting, so for those who have taken issue with him and Farrell getting that credit in Bryan’s rankings, he doesn’t in mine, so he’s actually as low as can be. I think he’s worth keeping around to take a further look at. If Ashburn was one vote away from 25% I would consider it instead, because strategically it makes more sense for lots of players to have a buffer for the war coming up. But oh well.
Murray, Minoso, Ruffing
Well, with all votes in, it looks like this:
Murray’s the runaway winner.
An extra round of eligibility goes to: Graig Nettles, Harmon Killebrew, and the late Minnie Minoso. I’m certain Nettles has never been off the bubble before. I believe Minoso was after his first round on the ballot, but it’s hard to remember that far back. Maybe not.
All other holdovers (including Red Ruffing, who was saved by bells’ 11th-hour vote) are safe.
Chuck Klein will not earn the “privilege” of competing against the class of 1903. There is no chance he would’ve survived this round, anyway.
Looking ahead, with the election of Murray, Harmon Killebrew is the ONLY player on the ballot with more than two rounds of eligibility squirreled away. Those 10 rounds he has will likely come in handy. As for the rest… well, we may soon be relying on the ol’ “top nine finishers” rule again, for the first time in a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time.
Minoso did indeed earn 2 rounds of eligibility in his first appearance on the ballot (1925.2), and kept them for several rounds, until the 1918 ballot (Williams, Feller, Reese).
I’m dealing with a medical issue at the moment. If someone wants to pick up with the 1903 round while I’m on the DL, feel free.
No worries, birtelcom. I’ll take care of it.
Get well soon.
Feel better! Please take care of yourself, first and foremost!
Get well soon birtelcom.