This post is for voting and discussion in the 95th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG). This round adds to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1896. Rules and lists are after the jump.
The new group of 1896-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This new group of 1896-born candidates joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.
Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. As always, the one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.
All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EDT Sunday, May 31st, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Friday, May 29th.
If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1896 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1896 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.
Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The fourteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1896 birth-year players are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.
Holdovers:
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for 9 rounds)
Roy Campanella (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Hoyt Wilhelm (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dwight Evans (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Goose Goslin (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Gabby Hartnett (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ted Lyons (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Everyday Players (born in 1896, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Rogers Hornsby
Jimmy Dykes
Bob O’Farrell
Muddy Ruel
Val Picinich
Cy Perkins
Bucky Harris
Clyde Manion
Aaron Ward
Bob Meusel
Curt Walker
Ray Blades
Pat Collins
Chick Galloway
Pinky Hargrave
Johnny Mostil
Charlie Hollocher
Pitchers (born in 1896, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Tom Zachary
Bill Sherdel
Rube Walberg
Rip Collins
Milt Gaston
Elam Vangilder
This round’s tidbits. Answers in red.
1. Rogers Hornsby is the only player to bat against Christy Mathewson (5-20-16) and Bob Feller (4-24-37). In a major league first, in what game was Hornsby was one of four players who had then hit 200 career home runs? May 31, 1936, Browns vs Tigers, Hornsby/Bottomley/Goslin/Simmons
2. Jimmy Dykes played 600 games for the Athletics at both second and third base. Who is the only other Athletic with 300 games at those two positions? Pete Suder
3. Bob O’Farrell famously ended the 1926 World Series by throwing out Babe Ruth attempting to steal second base. O’Farrell took MVP honors that season on the strength of 3.5 WAR while catching 142 games. Which catcher had the highest WAR total in a pre-1950 season catching 140+ games? Steve O’Neill
4. Tom Zachary started and ended his career in Philadelphia, though he played only 9 games combined for the A’s and Phillies. Instead, Zachary spent just over half his career with the Senators. Who is the other non-HOFer like Zachary with 1500 IP for the Senators/Twins and 1500 IP elsewhere? Jim Kaat
5. Muddy Ruel was the Browns’ third teenage catcher in four seasons when he debuted at age 19 in 1915. Third time was evidently the charm as Ruel would catch over 1400 games in his career (but only 34 for the Browns) compared to fewer than 60 games combined for Charlie Snell and Joe Hale. Which Browns/Orioles all-teenage battery combined for a two-hit shutout in the career debuts for both players? Dave McNally/Andy Etchebarren, Sep 26, 1962
6. Val Picinich caught 150 games for the Senators, Red Sox, Reds and Dodgers. Who is the only active player with 150 games caught for four franchises? Miguel Olivo
7. Cy Perkins was the first player with 135 games caught in four consecutive seasons (1920-23). Who was the second catcher to do this? Randy Hundley
8. Rube Walberg posted 7 consecutive seasons (1926-32) with a winning record from double-digit wins and losses. Who is the other AL pitcher to do this since 1920? Jim Kaat
9. Bill Sherdel’s 153 wins are the most for a Cardinal left-hander. Which pitcher leads Cardinal southpaws in expansion era wins? Steve Carlton
10. Clyde Manion posted a career 45 OPS+ in 1300 PA. Who is the only expansion era catcher with a lower OPS+ in a 1000+ PA career? Jerry Zimmerman
11. Curt Walker compiled four 3 WAR seasons, but none of 4 WAR. Who is the only outfielder since to match that feat? Mack Jones
12. Bucky Harris led the Senators to two pennants and a world championship in his first two seasons as a player/manager. Who is the other AL player/manager to do the same (for his team)? Mickey Cochrane
13. Aaron Ward led the AL in strikeouts in his 1920 rookie season. Who is the other rookie third baseman to do the same? Harlond Clift
14. Milt Gaston’s 9 consecutive losing seasons (1926-34) with double-digit loss totals is, by 3 years, the longest such streak since 1901. Of the three pitchers tied for second with a streak of 6 such seasons, which one recorded double-digit wins in each year of that streak? Pedro Ramos
15. Bob Meusel and older brother Irish both batted .300 and recorded between 20 and 30 WAR for their careers, both were league RBI champs and both logged a .500 record in four or more World Series. But Irish couldn’t match Bob’s rookie feat of a 4-game streak with 3 hits. Who is the only rookie since at least 1914 with a longer such streak? Les Scarsella
16. Rip Collins (not to be confused with Ripper Collins) had a career winning record in 25+ decisions for the Tigers, Browns, Yankees and Red Sox. Which active starting pitcher can say the same thing about four franchises he’s played for? Bartolo Colon
17. Elam Vangilder logged 20 starts and 20 relief appearances for the 1927 Browns. Which is the only Browns/Orioles team with two such pitchers? 1935 Jim Walkup/Ivy Andrews
18. Pinky Hargrave’s 25 home runs and 146 RBI for 1925-28 led all part-time players (3+ seasons and fewer than 1000 PA) over that period. Which two of those part-time players would record the most career home runs? Jimmie Foxx, Mel Ott
19. Ray Blades smacked 50 career homers playing only for the Cardinals. Who is the only career Cardinal with more home runs and, like Blades, fewer home runs than triples? Pepper Martin
20. Sammy Hale’s .336 OBP is the lowest career mark among AL players batting .300 in a 3000 PA career. Who has the lowest such career OBP among expansion era players in either league? Ralph Garr
21. Chick Galloway recorded 6 consecutive qualifying seasons as the A’s shortstop. Who is the only A’s shortstop with a longer streak of such seasons? Bert Campaneris
22. Pat Collins was one of a trio of Yankee catchers who backstopped the Bombers to the World Series crown in 1928. Which is only Yankee team with 3 players catching 50+ games that didn’t win the World Series? 1986 with Butch Wynegar, Ron Hassey and Joel Skinner
23. Johnny Mostil led his league in SB, BB and Runs in 1925. Who is the only player since to match that feat? Rickey Henderson 1989
24. Charlie Hollocher needed only 7 seasons to amass 20 WAR and qualify for this COG ballot. His chronic depression led to an early end to both his career and, sadly, his life, taken by his own hand. Hollocher’s 134 OPS+ for the 1918 Cubs remains the major league record since 1901 for rookie shortstops in a qualifying season. Who holds the AL record? Bobby Grich
Johnny Mostil question (#23): Rickey Henderson in 1989.
Without looking up the answer to question 21 I’ll say Eddie Joost.
Joost had 6 consecutive qualifying seasons but Campy had 12 straight as the A’s SS, from 1965-76, with the first 3 in KC.
12. Bucky Harris question: Mickey Cochrane, with the 1934-35 Tigers.
4. Tom Zachary question: Jim Kaat, with over 3000 IP for the Twins/Senators and just over 1500 IP combined for the White Sox, Phillies, Yankees, and Cardinals.
3. Bob O’Farrell question: Bill Dickey.
Not Dickey. He never had a season catching 140 games.
How about Steve O’Neill?
Jimmy Dykes question (#2): Pete Suder
Rogers Hornsby question (#1): That game occurred on 5-31-36 between the Browns and the Tigers. The players were Hornsby, Jim Bottomley, Goose Goslin and Al Simmons.
9. Bill Sherdel question: Steve Carlton.
Pat Collins
(the name usually overlooked in Murderers Row)
___________
Three Yankee Catchers with 50 games and no WS win?
Not 1979 (3 x 40)
Are you thinking of 1960?
Howard/Yogi/Blanchard
Blanchard appeared in 53 games, but only caught in 28.
It could be the 1986 Yankees.
Butch Wynegar 61 games
Joel Skinner 54 games
Ron Hassey 64 games
The Yankees did not win a WS that year (nor did they lose).
That was the team.
Besides the 1928 championship team with Collins, Bengough and Grabowski (sounds like a sure-handed catcher), the 1943 Yankees were WS winners with Dickey, Hemsley and Sears (sounds like a law firm).
They may not have lost the WS that year, but their fans certainly lost it. Mets-Sox? That was brutal.
19. Ray Blades question — Pepper Martin
Martin is the one, with 59 homers and 75 triples. He had only one season with more home runs than triples – his last at age 40 with nary a three-bagger and two taters, both off the Giants’ Cliff “Mickey Mouse” Melton.
13. Aaron Ward question: Harlond Clift.
Milt Gaston (#14): Pete Ramos
Rip Collins (#16): Assuming he doesn’t need to be above .500 with every team for which he has pitched, Bartolo Colon is .500+ for the Indians, Angels, Mets, and A’s in 25+ decisions. He’s also sub-.500 for the White Sox in 25+ decisions.
Colon is the answer.
Pinky Hargrave (18): Does Jimmie Foxx qualify as a part-time player in 1925-1928? I’m guessing he does (he played in all 4 seasons, though only 44 PAs in 1925-1926), so I would guess he is one.
And Mel Ott is kind of in the same boat, with 61 PAs in 1926, 180 in 1927, then 500 in 1928. I would guess he is the other one.
Those are the two.
Muddy Ruel question: Dave McNally & Andy Etchebarren?
You’ve got it.
Both made their major league debuts for the Orioles on Sep 26, 1962 as the O’s shutout the A’s.
McNally made the big club the following season and was a regular from that point forward. Different story for Etchebarren who had to wait 3 years for another cup of coffee, and wasn’t a regular until 1966 at age 23.
Bob Meusel question 15: Les Scarsella in 1936
6. Val Picinich – Miguel Olivo for the White Sox, Mariners, Marlins, and Royals. If he somehow resigns with the Rockies someday, he’d need only 39 games caught to make it a fifth franchise.
Honorable mention to Russell Martin, who’s caught 150+ for three franchises, and may make it four if he continues to catch for Toronto next season. Jose Molina has also caught 150+ for three franchises, and caught over 100 with a fourth. That’s as many as I checked.
It is Olivo.
Martin will likely break a record this season that has stood for almost 100 years, surpassing George Gibson for most games caught by a Canadian-born catcher.
7. Cy Perkins – The answer, I think is Randy Hundley (1966-1969). Hundley played every game of his career at C, from what I can tell. Baseball-reference credits him with a game at DH… but when I check the game logs, there doesn’t appear to be any evidence of that. He pinch hit or ran a couple of times, but didn’t seem to DH. Anyone know anything about it?
There were some close calls before that, though. Jim Hegan ran up 133, 142, 152, 129, and 129 in five straight years (1947-1951). Yogi Berra made it SEVEN straight years at 133+ games caught… but the 133 was the middle of those seven years (1953) so he had no four-year streak.
It is Hundley, more than 40 years after Perkins.
I found that lone game at DH using P-I. It came when Hundley pinch-ran for DH Tony Oliva in the bottom of the 9th. So, Hundley is technically the DH until another player substitutes for him or he enters the game at another position, neither of which happened as the game ended a few minutes later.
Question #11, Curt Walker: I came up with Mack Jones. His Player Value chart shows a season of 4.0 but that is rounded up from 3.98.
I kept coming up with players who were close.
Curt Blefary had 3 3 WAR seasons …
Terry Puhl had 4 3 WAR seasons but a 6 WAR season that knocked him out …
Don Baylor actually had 5 3 WAR seasons, but two of those were as a DH …
Mookie Wilson had 2 3 WAR seasons and 4 2 WAR seasons …
It was Mack Jones, an original Montreal Expo in one of those 3 WAR seasons with career highs in 2B, RBI, BB, BA, OPS and OPS+.
Answer to Rube Walberg is the answer to Tom Zachary – Jim Kaat, 1964-1970.
Kaat is also the answer to the question “Who is the only pitcher to face batters who hit against Ted Lyons and Adam Wainwright?”
Looks like the batters were Ted Williams and Julio Franco.
And Lyons pitched to Ty Cobb. The string Cobb-Lyons-Williams-Kaat-Franco-Wainwright extends from 1905 to date.
Because I am impatient I looked up the answers with the Play Index. I won’t spoil all of the fun for others but I will say this about the remaining questions (assuming I correctly used the Play Index):
10. Manion – I guessed Jeff Mathis. There are catchers with 1000+ PAs and lower OPS+ than Jeff Mathis. I didn’t think it was possible either.
17. Vangilder – yeah … let’s just say that Richard Chester answered Doug’s trivia question about one of the pitchers who is an answer to this question in an earlier COG post. Because that narrows it down 😉
20. Hale – I should have thought longer about this one before I looked it up. It is gettable.
24. Hollocher – in one sense the answer is surprising … and in another it is not.
On Charlie Hollocher, I am going to guess Nomar Garciaparra.
Nope. But a great guess with a 200 hit rookie season.
Is it Gil McDougald with his 142 OPS+ in 1951?
I think now it’s A-Rod.
Looking at third basemen, rather than shortstops, the record is held by Dick Allen with a 162 OPS+ in 1964. Before Allen, the record was a 151 OPS+, and the man who set that record was … Rogers Hornsby in 1916. Had Hornsby played SS in 1916 he would have the SS record.
For second basemen, the record holder is Jim Viox with a 141 OPS+ in 1913 (if we exclude the Federal League).
The player is surprising not in the Jim Viox sense (I had never heard of Viox) but in the Allen/Hornsby sense (who thinks of them as third basemen – particularly Hornsby).
Assuming I’ve used the PI correctly – I have Hollocher is the top OPS+ given Doug’s restrictions and Nomar 3rd.
These are Viox’s career numbers compared to other second baseman with 500 games played for one franchise through age 25. Lopez looks like the best comp as someone whose career just didn’t fulfill its early promise. If the column headings aren’t lining up, the first number after the player’s name is his WAR total.
Generated 5/27/2015.
Note Viox’s walk total, one every 8.9 PA.
It has to be a *qualifying* rookie season.
Sammy Hale question–Is it Ralph Garr (.339)?
Elam Van Gilder, question 17: Jim Walkup and Ivy Andrews, the pitcher referenced in Artie Z’s post #86.
Jim Walkup – unfortunate name for a pitcher. And, it fit, with a career 5.1 BB/9. Walkup also has the highest ERA (7.36) by an AL pitcher in a 150 IP season, and three seasons with 90 IP and ERA over 6.00, tied with Les Sweetland and Todd Van Poppel for the most since 1901.
And there are two Jim Walkups whom I’m assuming are related (even though B-R doesn’t indicate this) because both hail from the town of Havana, Arkansas. Both were pitchers, the elder facing just 8 batters in his career and the younger getting over 400 IP, including 180 in the 1935 season that he and Ivy Andrews had 20 starts and 20 relief outings for St. Louis.
Those Browns had only one pitcher (Sugar Cain) who was used mainly as a starter (24 starts in 31 appearances), but seven(!) others who had at least 17 starts and 23 relief outings.
I did some Googling. Nowhere do any of the articles about the Walkups mention their being relatives. It turns out that pitcher Johnny Sain was also born there. So that’s 3 MLers from a town with a population of about 375, not bad at all.
retrosheet.org lists the Walkups as cousins.
Lyons, Tiant, Hornsby
Hornsby, Ashburn, Goslin
Rogers Hornsby
Goose Goslin
Hoyt Wilhelm
Harmon Killebrew, Dennis Eckersley, Rogers Hornsby
It seems as though the only function of an 1896 CoG contest will be to shake a few holdovers off the list. Not much of a contest. Might as well move on to 1895. Oh, wait. 1894.
Hornsby . . . . . . . . Campanella, Ashburn
The last few rounds, I’ve been more or less reserving one vote for a viable player I really like, but one who really doesn’t belong in the Circle (where I do think Campy belongs): Goslin, Ferrell, Wilhelm, Lyons (at Hartvig’s urging). This time it’s Ashburn. I probably went to more games in 1962 than any other year, all at the Polo Grounds. I’d watch the Mets play and think, “What’s this guy doing on the team? He could be in the Major Leagues.” I always liked Ashburn. Putting him together with Campy almost adds enough niceness to balance the unpleasantness that was the Rajah.
Rogers Hornsby, Kevin Brown, Hoyt Wilhelm
H.Wilhelm, T.Lyons, R.Hornsby
Hornsby, Eckersley, Ashburn
Hornsby, Campanella, Goslin
Hornsby, Goslin, Hartnett
Charlie Hollacher had a season with
691 PA
5 strikeouts
Most PA with 5 strikeouts or fewer:
699 / 4 … Sewell
691 / 5 … Hollacher
672 / 5 … Keeler
671 / 4 … Sewell
645 / 5 … Keeler
595 / 4 … Lave Cross
582 / 5 … Stuffy McInnis
540 / 5 … Jimmy Ryan
507 / 5 … Kid Elberfeld (with 25 HBP)
444 / 5 … Lloyd Waner
414 / 3 … Sewell
400 / 5 … Edd Roush
363 / 2 … Emil Verban
339 / 4 … Buck Jordan
336 / 5 … Willard Marshall (1950)
299 / 5 … Hollacher
295 / 5 … Lou Boudreau (1950)
282 / 3 … Johnny Peacock
275 / 5 … Zack Wheat
274 / 5 … Waner
273 / 2 … Ty Cobb (age 39)
______________________________
Since 1987:
151 / 3 … Greg Gross
140 / 4 … Tony Gwynn
132 / 5 … Rafael Bournigal
120 / 4 … Alan Trammell
113 / 5 … Craig Grebeck
102 / 4 … Steve Finley
101 / 5 … Ken Oberkfell
_________________________
So far, in 2015, the leader is:
56 / 3 … Ben Zobrist
Hornsby, Hartnett, Goslin.
Hornsby–Nettles–Goslin.
Rogers Hornsby was my manager, and he called me a talking pile of pigshit. And that was when my parents drove all the way down from Michigan to see me play the game. And did I cry?
Ferrell. Wait, what? *SIGH*
Hornsby, Hartnett, Nettles
Booooooooooo! To the loss of Ferrell.
His numbers aren’t so pretty, in part because he pitched at the height of the offensive era.
But in his 8-year peak he averaged 6.2 Pitching WAR.
And 1.3 WAR on offense.
7.5 WAR, 8 year peak.
Replacement-level outside of that, yes.
But I’ll argue that from 1929 – 1936 he was the most complete ballplayer on the field, and best pitcher not named Grove.
Have we failed to elect anyone else who maintained 7.5 for eight years?
:52 and1:26, but really the entire 2+ minutes…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6M8szlSa-8o
Apropos of nothing in particular, in 1935 the NL sported five player-managers and the AL merely four, but two were Hornsby and Dykes.
Charlie Grimm, Frankie Frisch, Bill Terry, Pie Traynor—all for the teams they are associated with most—plus Jimmie Wilson for the Phillies in the NL; Mickey Cochran, Joe Cronin in Boston, Dykes in Chicago, and Hornsby in StL. in the AL.
This isn’t a quiz question but an inquiry: Is 9 the highest number of player-managers in a season?
Are you counting the 19th century? If so, some season from the 19th c. no doubt takes the prize, probably 1890, if I had to guess.
Leaving the 19th c. aside, I’m not sure what the highest number is, but it’s not 1935: in 1906, 5 NL and 5 AL teams had player-managers (although some of them had a mere handful of appearances), 11 player-managers in total (the Boston Americans replaced one player-manager with another mid-season).
Bill James did a study of this by decade. His results, in terms of the percentage of managers who were player-managers, were these:
1870s: 68%
1880s: 41%
1890s: 51%
1900s: 57%
1910s: 44%
1920s: 24%
1930s: 32%
1940s: 19%
1950s: 7%
1960s: <1%
1970s: 2%
1980s: 1%
1990s: 0% (through 1996)
Since the entire decade of the 1900s has a rate slightly higher than the single year 1935, I think even if you don't count pre-1900 baseball the answer to your question must be no.
My vote:
Rogers Hornsby
Kevin Brown
Luis Tiant
Brief update through 13 ballots cast:
14 – Rogers Hornsby
====================50% (7)
6 – Goose Goslin
====================25% (4)
3 – Richie Ashburn, Gabby Hartnett, Hoyt Wilhelm
2 – Kevin Brown, Roy Campanella, Dennis Eckersley, Ted Lyons, Graig Nettles, Luis Tiant
1 – Harmon Killebrew
Fourteen ballots cast so far, including yours, Dr. Doom. Still an impressive run so far for Hornsby.
Yeah, I started writing the post, realized I hadn’t voted, did so, and then forgot to update the intro to the post! The numbers, though, were correct at the time of publication. As of now (dr-remulak’s vote), Hornsby is 16/16.
Hornsby, Goslin, Winfield.
It’s difficult to not vote for Killebrew this time, but Hornsby’s excellence needs to be acknowledged, and there are a couple worthy candidates in Goslin and Winfield to keep on the ballot.
Killebrew has received a lot of support, just never quite enough. While he isn’t a shoo-in for the Circle of Greats, I think he definitely belongs and has remained far longer on the holdover list than I ever imagined he would need to wait for election. It won’t happen this time, nor in the 1895 election, so I’ll need to make his case for election in the 1894 round.
Hornsby, Winfield, Nettles.
Hornsby, Winfield, Reuschel
What was Bill James’ problem with Hornsby again?
His critique of Hornsby was basically: 1) he was a mediocre fielder, and 2) he was a general pain in the ass. For all that, he still ranked Hornsby #22 all-time, and #3 among second baseman, so I don’t know that he really has a problem with Hornsby per se; he just doesn’t rank him quite as highly as many have in the past.
During the six consecutive years that Hornsby led the NL in every single slash statistic:
.397 / .467 / .666 / 1.133 / 201
9.9 WAR
78 / -1 / 2
____________
I haven’t read James’ analysis of his fielding.
What does James have to say that contradicts the 54 Rfield that b-r credits him?
Here’s the most relevant passage, from James’ New Historical Abstract (it’s actually in the comment on Eddie Collins, rather than Hornsby himself):
“The Win Shares system actually does not see Hornsby as a terrible second baseman. The Win Shares system sees Hornsby as a more or less average defensive second baseman – but also as the worst defensive second baseman who had a long career at the position. There are 71 second baseman in baseball history who played an estimated 10,000 innings or more at second base. Among those 71 players, Hornsby rates dead last in terms of Win Share per defensive inning.
“But actually, Hornsby’s defensive performance isn’t bad […] It’s just that normally, a player never has a long career at second base unless he is a good defensive second baseman. If you compare Hornsby to the men who played 1,000, 2,000, 3,000 innings at the position, there are lots of guys who are far worse than he was. But Hornsby was such a great hitter that he was an exception to the rule – the rule that a player can’t have a long career at second base unless he is a good defensive second baseman.”
A similar thing could be said of Jeter and the shortstop position, I suppose.
Of Hornsby’s 54 Rfield, 28 came when he was a young shortstop. Don’t know what that means, but none of the obvious reasons I can think of make his subsequent play at 2B more impressive. Frisch, his contemporary, had 140 Rfield, very few of them playing 3B.
Why is it so hard to accept the idea that as a hitter Hornsby was the .400 pound gorilla, but that as a fielder he was only so-so? So-so is OK.
I find it hard to believe, given what is known and the age we live in, that blind hero worship still exists. Warts-and-all has been the rule for fifty years at least.
Someone mentioned on this site that Hornsby moved from shortstop to second base because he developed some sort of neurological issue that affected his balance and made it difficult for him to judge objects in the air! Presumably judging pop-ups is just as much an issue at second as at short, so the remedy seems odd. But does make some sense in accounting for why such a large portion of his defensive value came from a small part of his career.
@87
I might have mentioned something about Hornsby’s dizzy spells but it was not connected to his move from SS to 2B.
If I recall, James also noted that Hornsby wasn’t loved by his teammates/ownership. Take a look at his 1926,1927,1928, and 1929 seasons. Four different teams for full seasons-Cardinals, Giants, Braves and Cubs. The Cardinals traded him for Frisch after 1926, when he had an off year. Then, one year each for three other teams. And he wasn’t exactly a dud. Led in Runs in 27+29, Walks in 27+28, OBA in 27+28, SLG in 28+29, OPS and OPS+ in 27,28,and 29, and TB in 29. Nearly 30bWAR in those three years. Outside of Frisch, the players he was traded for where not exactly memorable.
The narrow view of statistical evaluation basically treats men as mechanisms whose performance can be formulated precisely. The importance of non-measurable factors is consistently denied.
James doesn’t believe this, and anyone who has worked with high-perfoming jerks knows what he means. They may shine in their own light, but they can impact negatively on those around them, so that the overall result is negative or less than it could have been.
While Hornsby’s character issues may not lessen his WAR, in other words, they need to be taken into account in an overall evaluation, at least according to the larger view.
NSB–This is why I could not vote for Dick Allen for the COG, but in my opinion, Hornsby’s offensive numbers make it impossible not to vote for him. One thing I think is interesting is that clubs continued to hire Hornsby as player-manager and then would rid themselves of The Rajah in relatively short order–the Cardinals after the WS win in ’26, the Giants (replacing John McGraw due to illness) in ’27, the Braves in ’28 and the Cubs, who hired him in late ’30 and fired him with the team in 2nd 98 games into the ’32 season (they finished 1st under Charlie Grimm).
Gary:
Hornsby’s managerial disasters went on and on. Read ‘Veeck—as in Wreck’ for Bill Veeck’s dismissal of Hornsby early in the 1952 season as the new Browns’ manager. Predictably, Hornsby was hired toward the end of that year by the Reds—and fired near the end of the next. There are several anecdotes about his behavior in Cincinnati, but I don’t have time to track them down.
Hornsby’s playing talents obviously outweighed his drawbacks by a considerable margin most of the time, but let’s not forget that during the six years Voomo refers to in #48 above, his team was a grand total of 15 games over .500, finished third twice, fourth once, fifth twice, and sixth once. The year they finished sixth was the year Rogers hit the magical .424 with an OPS+ of 222 and WAR of 12.1.
Any ranking of great players has to include him near the top, no question there. But a little skepticism about his overall impact ought to be included.
nsb,
“The year they finsihed 6th” two other Cardinal regulars had an OPS+ above 100. One starter on the staff had an ERA+ above 100. Meanwhile, that same season, the first place NY Giants had 7 regulars with an OPS+ great than 100.
Two problems with the theory of replacing the high performance jerk:
1) Who’s going to create all those runs (or sales, for that matter)?
2) Does this departure make his teammates better ballplayers (or salesmen)?
Management, sports or industrial, has a lot of theories they put into practice. Maybe they ought to take more courses on managing egotistical jerks since performance doesn’t seem to be an issue? But, then again, the company man won’t ever change the status quo
Here are some notes about Hornsby being fired by the Cubs in mid-1932:
Aug 2, 1932 – The Cubs lose again in Brooklyn‚ 4-2‚ as Warneke gives up 3 runs in the 8th inning‚ and now trail the Pirates by 5 games. Warneke loses his 2nd in the series after winning 9 straight. Following the loss‚ Cubs president Veeck and Hornsby argue on the train to Philadelphia about the strategy. Further discussion in Veeck’s hotel room end with the firing of Rogers Hornsby as a manager. A contributing factor in The Rajah’s departure is his gambling‚ and the debts he has run up borrowing money from Cubs’ players (Hornsby said to pay debts). Veeck works out a repayment schedule with the money to be subtracted from what the Cubs owe Hornsby on his contract. Affable 1B Charlie Grimm is put in charge of the team and the team will charge in front winning 20 of their next 25 games.
Aug 13, 1932 – Commissioner Landis clears Rogers Hornsby of charges of fraudulently “borrowing” money from Cubs players. The Chicago papers said Hornsby had obtained money from players‚ either loaned to him to bet on horse races‚ or to share in joint ventures. When Hornsby is fined‚ the players want refunds. Hornsby wants a lump payoff by the Cubs‚ who refuse. Landis holds several hearings‚ and as he doesn’t punish anyone‚ it is taken as exoneration.
Sep 22, 1932 – The Cubs announce WS shares and snub former player-manager Rogers Hornsby. Late-season arrival Mark Koenig gets just a half share. Hornsby appeals to Judge Landis‚ arguing that he was an active player for two-thirds of the season‚ and deserved a full share. Landis turns him down.
The Veecks father and son both fired him. Forgot that.
Hornsby, Hartnett, Campanella
I’ll replace Ferrell with Lyons in representing the odd-shaped pitchers’ squad.
Vote:
Dennis Eckersley
Ted Lyons
Hoyt Wilhelm
Hornsby, Hornsby, and Hornsby. I can do that, right?
Oh. In that case, Hornsby, Killebrew, and Eckersley.
Hornsby, Kevin Brown, and Nettles
Rogers Hornsby
Goose Goslin
Graig Nettles
@ 47, 48, 53, 57, & 60:
Honestly, the question was rhetorical. In light of the fact Hornsby’s career OPS+ is first amongst RH hitters, if he fielded like Juan Samuel and was as egotistical as Reggie Jackson, somehow I believe every GM and owner in MLB would like to have him batting 3rd every day. The frequent player-manager hiring was probably merely a tool of ownership/management to save money. And, who better to put up with Rogers Hornsby every day than Hornsby himself.
Besides, I’m sure he wasn’t the first old man to piss in the shower (James pg. 486-NBJHBA).
Vote update, through the 22nd ballot cast, which belongs to latefortheparty:
21 – Rogers Hornsby (95.45%)
8 – Goose Goslin
=======================25% (6)
5 – Graig Nettles
4 – Dennis Eckersley, Gabby Hartnett, Hoyt Wilhelm
3 – Richie Ashburn, Kevin Brown, Roy Campanella, Ted Lyons, Dave Winfield
=======================10% (3)
2 – Harmon Killebrew, Luis Tiant
1 – Rick Reuschel
0 – Dwight Evans
Wow, I have to say that I’m surprised to see Dwight Evans failing to have nabbed a single vote to this point. So much effort has been put into keeping so many holdovers around, I thought that after last round’s bloodbath we would see extra effort focused on keeping people around this time. Perhaps that will still happen later in the round, but things aren’t looking great for Dewey right now.
With the assumption that Hornsby does not need my vote . . .
Ashburn, Killebrew, Dwight Evans
Hornsby, Winfield, Tiant
Apropos of Hornsby’s fielding, here’s a link from Hard Ball Times to a Jeff Zimmerman piece reexamining positional adjustments. Nothing about Hornsby specifically, but does make you think about the value of defensive WAR.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/re-examining-wars-defensive-spectrum/
It makes me think about how much my head hurts trying to understand the article.
Are you able to sum up the conclusions?
Is the conclusion that WAR weighs defensive positions improperly?
Joseph @ 102, I found myself a bit lost as well, but yes, that’s what I think the conclusion is–the current positional adjustments applied in calculating WAR aren’t accurate. It looks like the differences are, net, narrower. I thought his theory that DH adjustment as compared to IB disappears when offset by a decline in DH performance when a player only hits was interesting.
Anyone else cleverer at math than I am care to take a crack at decoding this? And, can they take an additional step and apply it?
I am fairly confident that if I was provided the data used in that study I would not be able to replicate the results because I don’t know what he did.
At some points it seems like he used all data, but then it seems like he’s using data for only players who change positions (play LF and RF, or play 1B and 3B). I’m not quite sure if that is what he’s doing, but if so it seems to miss a big reason why SS is so valuable – teams don’t move Ozzie Smith anywhere else on the diamond, not because he couldn’t play CF or LF, but because he was a great SS. So if he is using data from those players who changed positions (and again, it’s not clear to me what he is using) then I don’t think he is quite getting at what he wants to get at because he is missing players who do not change positions.
But I agree with Mike L that the conclusion is that the positional values currently in use are not correct. The methods are unclear to me.
Applying it seems straightforward – using baseball-reference Rpos numbers (which look to be closer to the numbers he has than the fangraphs Rpos numbers) RF and LF would gain about 2-3 runs (note runs, not wins, so using 10 runs per win then about 0.2-0.3 WAR) per year (based on how much of a full season they played), while C, 2B, SS, 3B, and CF would all lose somewhere between 0.25-2.25 runs per year. First base would stay about the same (gain about 0.25 runs per year), while DH would see a huge improvement, gaining almost 6 runs per year, so about a half win per year. At least that’s my reading of it.
Here’s Tom Tango’s reaction to the article. Don’t really understand it but Tango’s bottom line is:
“So, I don’t see much here to really make any big changes. Maybe some tweaking. But this is the reason I keep the gap between each position as 5 runs: so that I accept a certain level of uncertainty. I can’t make the gap too tight, because it presents a false sense of precision.”
http://tangotiger.com/index.php/site/article/update-to-the-fielding-spectrum-run-values
What he did (I think) was look at position changes within the same season and compared Rfield numbers at those two different positions for the same player. He also looked at average offensive numbers for each position and came up with run differences between positions.
So he has a run estimate, one from defense and one from offense. It looks like he just took the average of those two for his final numbers.
I think the most important thing to remember is this wouldn’t change positional adjustments for historical players, just the records of players from 2002-on (if these changes were actually made).
But I’m skeptical this will change things. Fangraphs hasn’t written a follow-up or response. And Tom Tango’s opinion really matters here, and he doesn’t think Jeff Z handled the handedness issue correctly. But he did seem impressed with the work on the DH adjustment and is interested in further work on that.
http://tangotiger.com/index.php/site/comments/update-to-the-fielding-spectrum-run-values
I’m hoping Jeff Z keeps his promise and addresses some of the questions in the comment section of the original article.
Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals:
Hornsby 98.4
Brown 43.3
Reuschel 40.6
Tiant 37.5
Nettles 35.7
Evans 34.9
Eckersley 34.3
Ashburn 33.9
Lyons 33.3
Killebrew 33.0
Goslin 31.7
Winfield 31.1
Hartnett 30.3
Wilhelm 28.7
Campanella 19.2
Hornsby, Brown, Eckersley
Hornsby, killebrew, campanella
Rogers Hornsby, Gabby Hartnett, Dave Winfield
Hornsby Ashburn Reuschel
G. Nettles, D. Evans, L. Tiant
Hornsby, Goslin and Reuschel
Hey Mo – I agree with your vote.
Hornsby – Ashburn – Reuschel
Totals through 31 votes (#103):
28 – Hornsby
==========================50% (16)
9 – Goslin
==========================25% (8)
6 – Ashburn, Nettles
5 – Eckersley, Hartnett, Winfield
4 – Brown, Campanella, Killebrew, Reuschel, Tiant, Wilhelm
==========================10% (4)
3 – Lyons
2 – Evans
Hornsby
Brown
Killebrew
Rajah, Killer, Goslin
Killebrew, Winfield, and Rajah.
Campanella, Hartnett, Tiant
Eckersley, Hornsby, Winfield
Hornsby
K. Brown
Reuschel
Harmon Killebrew, Luis Tiant, Dennis Eckersley.
Hornsby, Lyons, Reuschel
Campanella, Hartnett, Evans
Hornsby, Hartnet, and Nettles.
Wilhelm, Tiant, Hornsby
Hornsby, Campanella, Lyons
Love Dewey Evans and I’d like to see him in the HOF but he misses my cutoff for the COG. Besides the guys I voted for the only person with 6 or fewer votes as of this moment that I’m considering would be Reuschel and I’m pretty iffy on him. Other than that everyone in my yes or maybe file has at least 7 votes but little or no shot at 25%.
Hornsby won’t be the biggest jerk to get into the COG but he almost certainly gets the nod among second baseman.
And how is it that I know who guys like Heinie Meine and Socks Seibold are but have never heard of Wee Willie Sherdel until just now?
Hornsby, Tiant, Nettles
Hmmmm. I voted yesterday and it never showed up. Let’s try again:
Rogers Hornsby
Rick Reuschel
Kevin Brown
Saturday AM update, through 45 votes (MJ @128); * indicates off the bubble:
39 – Rogers Hornsby
=================25% (12)
10 – Goose Goslin
8 – Gabby Hartnett, Harmon Killebrew*, Graig Nettles, Luis Tiant
7 – Kevin Brown, Roy Campanella*, Dennis Eckersley, Rick Reuschel, Dave Winfield
6 – Richie Ashburn
5 – Ted Lyons, Hoyt Wilhelm*
=================10% (5)
3 – Dwight Evans
Dw. Evans, Ashburn, Wilhelm
Support for some borderline underdogs.
Wilhelm, Tiant, Dwight Evans
Reuschel, Hartnett, Wilhelm.
Ashburn,
Winfield,
Hornsby
For the 1896 election, I’m voting for:
-Rogers Hornsby
-Dave Winfield
-Dwight Evans
Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Eckersley
-Killebrew
-Brown
-Tiant
-Nettles
-Lyons
-Goslin
-Ashburn
-Reuschel
Someone asked during the last thread whether relievers really deserved to be in the COG.
Since we as a community seem to be taking so much stock in Bill James’ word regarding Rogers Hornsby, I thought maybe we could look at the list of 100 greatest pitchers from his New Historical Abstract (2001) and see how the relievers did.
#27 all-time: Hoyt Wilhelm
#32 all-time: Dennis Eckersley (starter also)
#37 all-time: Goose Gossage
#57 all-time: Bruce Sutter
#68 all-time: Dan Quisenberry
This list came out in 2001, so these guys wouldn’t be quite so high if James had done the list today. Clemens and Maddux were already high up on the list, but we would likely see these pitchers also ahead of Wilhelm at #27: Pedro, Unit, Glavine, Smoltz (probably), Mo Rivera, and possibly Schilling and Mussina. I say “possibly” only on Schill because he is generally not ranked as high as his WAR suggests he should be. Kevin Brown was #73 after the 2000 season, but I don’t think going 41-30 with a 115 ERA+ and 9.5 WAR to finish his career would be enough to get him in the top 40 or 50.
The point is I think Wihelm would end up somewhere around #33 or #34 all-time and Eckersley somewhere around #39 or #40. So James did have a fairly high opinion of elite relievers.
Here’s all the pitchers on the ballot and where they were ranked in 2001:
#27 Hoyt Wilhelm
#32 Dennis Eckersley
#43 Ted Lyons
#52 Luis Tiant
#73 Kevin Brown (thru age-35 season only)
#81 Rick Reuschel
Just-off-the-ballot Wes Ferrell was #40 all-time.
I realize that in many ways players have little say in how they are used. I suspect that Wilhelm would have rather been a starter and, when he did get the opportunity, was pretty successful at it. So was Eckersley. Others, like Gossage and Rivera, weren’t as successful.
But either way, I just don’t see how even the best reliever has as much impact as a good starter.
Let’s compare Koufax to Wilhelm and Rivera.
The biggest knock on Koufax was that his career was just too short to warrant inclusion in the COG- only 12 years. And of those 12 years he was only significantly better than a replacement pitcher in half of them. And yet even though his career was about half as long as Wilhelm’s he pitched more innings and produced almost the same amount of WAR. Compared to Rivera- who is viewed as the greatest closer ever by a considerable margin by virtually everyone- he almost pitched twice as many innings while producing about 10% less WAR in a career that was less than two-thirds as long.
Whether they are responsible for how they were used or not I just don’t see how we can argue that Wilhelm had anywhere near as much to do with the success of the teams that he played on as say someone like Koufax or Dazzy Vance or Wes Ferrell.
If I were the one deciding who gets into the HOF I would include Wilhelm.
But he wouldn’t be among my top 125 so I just can’t vote for him for the COG ahead of some others.
A bit of small sample size in play to say Mo and Goose weren’t successful as Starters.
Rivera was a rookie.
One who dominated as a starter in the minors:
2.37 era
1.027 WHIP
And of those 10 starts,
4 were a disaster,
3 were okay,
3 were excellent.
_________________
Goose started in one season, at age 24.
And while that 9 – 17 record is hideous,
he pitched 15 complete games for a team with a lousy defense.
And an offense that gave him 2.98 runs per game.
13 of his starts the sox scored 2 runs or less.
When giving up 3 or 4 runs Gossage went 0 – 8 with one no-dec.
His WAR was 2.8
His WAA was 0.8
________________
I noticed one of Goose’s teammates, Ken Brett, had some at bats that season. Pinch hit a few times. But also, two games where Chicago didn’t use a DH:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=brettke01&t=b&year=1976#batting_gamelogs::none
Voomo: I agree that the sample size is small for Gossage and Rivera as starters.
But I think a bit more detail is in order:
In 1976, Gossage had a 2.91 ERA in the first half, 5.08 in the second half. So perhaps he lacked the arm strength to last the whole season as a starter?
Also, for his career, Gossage had a 4.49 ERA in a low-run scoring environment. Granted all those starts came when he was young but overall that’s not a very good record.
As for Rivera, I’d say that calling 3 of his starts “excellent” is a stretch. He did have an 85 game score against the White Sox. But his next best game score was only 60. And I’m guessing that you’re putting his May 28th start against the A’s in the excellent category. Personally I’d call it mediocre. Sure he only gave up one run, but 5 1/3 innings, 7 hits, 3 walks, 1 K against a poor team in an extreme pitchers park is hardly anything to get excited about.
And while his 2.37 ERA in the minors is excellent, that includes some time as a reliever. Plus starters in the minors often don’t pitch very long. Look at 1995, for example, where he made 7 starts, but only pitched 30 innings. Much easier to dominate when you know you only have to pitch 3-5 innings at a time.
Well, okay.
All true.
And Mo did just have that one pitch.
Gotta figure familiarity would breed barrel contact.
_________________
Wonder if this guy would have been a good reliever, though:
Grag Maddux, first two years:
8 – 18
5.59
1.661
Apropos of Mariano, don’t forget Voomo that he learned the cutter only after his first season; looking at his mediocre performance as a starter is basically irrelevant given that fact. He was a completely different pitcher with that pitch in his arsenal.
Re do relievers belong in the COG? Since I was the one who posed the question—mainly to stimulate discussion, by the way— I have a responsibility to comment here, I suppose. The problem with considering relievers is well stated by Hartvig @ 137. You don’t have to agree to see his point. My point is harder to make.
I’ve tried to find a comparable situation to that of reliever in another sport, and it isn’t the field goal kicker in football, although that was my first thought. A better parallel can be found in the kick return specialist—high profile position, vital to the team, in the thick of the action, but not on the field of play very long.
Devin Hester has been remarkably good, often outstanding, at this position for what amounts to a full NFL career, a perennial All Pro. Would you vote him into the inner circle of great NFL players on the basis of his play?
Another update, with 50 votes exactly and 14.25 hours to go:
41 – Rogers Hornsby
=================25% (13)
10 – Goose Goslin
9 – Gabby Hartnett, Luis Tiant, Dave Winfield
8 – Richie Ashburn, Harmon Killebrew*, Graig Nettles, Rick Reuschel, Hoyt Wilhelm*
7 – Kevin Brown, Roy Campanella*, Dennis Eckersley
6 – Dwight Evans
5 – Ted Lyons
=================10% (5)
Everyone safe for now. Good luck on the final day of voting!
Hornsby, Goslin, Lyons
Hartvig has convinced me that Ted Lyons belongs. He’s over 70 WAR including his hitting and would be close to 80 WAR with war credit, which I think he deserves. He would likely be near 300 wins had he pitched on better teams.
Hornsby, Lyons, Eckersley,
Yadier Molina has just
caughttied Muddy Ruel in career games caught.StL P-D story: http://bit.ly/1JiMZJB