Circle of Greats 1893 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 98th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This round adds to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1893. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of 1893-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This new group of 1893-born candidates joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players.  As always, the one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EDT Sunday, June 28th, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Friday, June 26th.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1893 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.  Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1893 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players.  The fourteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same.  The 1893 birth-year players are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for 10 rounds)
Roy Campanella  (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Goose Goslin (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Hoyt Wilhelm (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dwight Evans (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Gabby Hartnett (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ted Lyons (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1893, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Charlie Jamieson
Edd Roush
George Burns
Wally Pipp
George Sisler
Frank O’Rourke
Milt Stock
Ira Flagstead
Billy Southworth
Irish Meusel
Joe Schultz
Mike McNally
Earl Sheely

Pitchers (born in 1893, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Burleigh Grimes
Jesse Haines
Guy Morton
Dutch Ruether
Allen Russell
Allan Sothoron
Ray Kremer

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185 Comments on "Circle of Greats 1893 Balloting"

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Doug
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This round’s tidbits. Answers in red. 1. Jesse Haines was the first NL starting pitcher to lead his league in appearances in a post-1901 rookie season. Who was the first relief pitcher to do this? Hoyt Wilhelm 2. Burleigh Grimes’ 25 wins at age 34 in 1928 make him the oldest pitcher with that many wins in a live ball era season. Who is the only older NL pitcher with such a season before 1920? Joe McGinnity 3. Charlie Jamieson batted over .300 in 1000+ PA after age 25, making him the only such player among 125 retired players since… Read more »
Richard Chester
Guest

Additional tidbit: In 1929 Sisler’s 205 hits are the most for a player in his next-to-last season.

Richard Chester
Guest

Answer to 17, Joe Schultz: I found Eddie Robinson. The BR PI shows him to be on 5 AL teams through 1955. But his career lasted through 1957 and he played on the Tigers and O’s in 1957. I found Robinson’s name by another method.

oneblankspace
Guest

Roush question: young Ken Griffey

oneblankspace
Guest

His father, who was the Reds’ regular centerfielder in 1981, finished with just over 200 games in CF for his whole career.

Brent
Guest

#2 (Grimes question) — if I understand the question, I think it is Joe McGinnity in 1906.

oneblankspace
Guest

Meusel question: old Gary Matthews (SF 1972-76, PHI 1981-83)

Brent
Guest

Wally Pipp question: Nick Etten.

Doug
Guest

That’s one. There’s another.

Richard Chester
Guest

The Moose, Bill Skowron.

Brent
Guest

Allan Sothoron question: Dale Murray, 1975 111.1 innings

Kahuna Tuna
Guest

#10, the Frank O’Rourke question: John McDonald, with a 59 career OPS+.

Richard Chester
Guest

John McDonald is one of 19 players with 15+ seasons in the ML and who never got as many as 100 hits in any one season.

Luis Gomez
Guest

6. George Burns question. Fred McGriff. San Diego, Toronto, Tampa Bay and Atlanta. He also played 180+ games at first base for the Cubs.

Dr. Doom
Guest

7. George Sister – I believe it’s Mark McGwire in 1999, with a 1.3058:1 ratio (363 TB, 278 AVG). That being said, I only checked four guys – McGwire, Adam Dunn, Rob Deer, and Dave Kingman. Deer has no such seasons, but the others all have seasons with a high number or two.

Hartvig
Guest

Shot in the dark on #1 (Jesse Haines)

Firpo Marberry in 1925?

Scary Tuna
Guest

9. Milt Stock question: It took a lot of searching before I found Austin McHenry. It’s always surprising to learn of a good player whose name I don’t recognize.

The Cardinals lost two players tragically in 1922 with both McHenry and Pickles Dillhoefer dying after their age 27 seasons.

Richard Chester
Guest

Number 20, Earl Sheely question: George Grantham from 1927-1931.

Richard Chester
Guest

Question #19, Mike McNally: Roxy Walters. He had 268 G with the Red Sox and 193 with the Yankees. They were teammates on the 1919-1920 Red Sox.

Hartvig
Guest

Another shot in the dark, this time on #3 (Charlie Jamieson)

Ozzie Smith?

Doug
Guest

Ozzie is our man.

brp
Guest

Guess for #11 Flagstead – Jacoby Ellsbury, 155 doubles in 2912 ABs as a Red Sox player? If you mean career ABs then he is not eligible but those are Tacoby Bellsbury’s BOS stats.

Doug
Guest

Ellsbury is the answer.

Brent
Guest

Geez, I got #1 with a wild guess and then spent a bunch of time double checking it. Should have just went with my gut and saved my time. The 1952 NY Giants had a rookie knuckleballing relief pitcher who pitched 72 games to lead the league. You might have heard of him, Hoyt Wilhelm.

Brent
Guest

Correction, 71 games. Which was the 20th century record at that point for games pitched, surpassed only be a few of the more rubber armed 19th century guys (Clarkson, Spalding, Galvin, Radbourne to name a few)

Gary Bateman
Guest

Ira Flagstead question–Is it Jacoby Ellsbury? He ended up with just less than 3,000 AB with the Red Sox and 155 doubles.

Brent
Guest

#13 is Ryan Dempster for the 2013 BoSox. Matt Holliday hit the HR in the top of the 9th to spoil the Red Sox shutout in Game 1.

Brent
Guest
#15 I have two answers: If Qualified rookie season means the pitcher didn’t pitch more than 50 innings previously, then I think the Answer is Gaylord Perry (1963, 1-6, .143 winning percentage). However, I suspect that Perry was not considered a rookie in 1963, because the definition of a rookie is multipart and, whereas, he didn’t exceed the innings limit in 1962 (he pitched 43 innings), I suspect he did use up his rookieness in the other way (he was on the roster more than 45 days in 1962). Therefore, I am pretty sure, despite his innings being under 50,… Read more »
Brent
Guest

I want to change my alternate answer if Gaylord Perry is not correct to Burleigh Grimes (3-16 (.158) in 1917)

Richard Chester
Guest

Question #18, Ray Kremer: George Bell, no not the one we all know, the one who pitched for Brooklyn from 1907-1911.

Brent
Guest

#18 is a guy named George Bell. Not the Blue Jays outfielder, but a guy who pitched in the 19 oughts with the Dodgers and led the league in losses with 27 in 1910

Brent
Guest

#5, if I understand it, I am looking for a player since the retirement of Roush/Southworth who had less than 50 HRs, and less than twice the doubles as triples.

If so, I think the answer is one of my favorite players of all time, Willie Wilson, with 281 doubles, 147 triples and 41 HRs (many of which were glorified triples, i.e. inside the park HRs)

Richard Chester
Guest

Just to finish up I came up with Charlie Hough as the answer to the Dutch Ruether question, #12.

Artie Z.
Guest
There are a lot of quality players in the 1893 birth year, but the only one I feel strongly about for the COG is Sisler. His 1917-1922 seasons are pretty special, with 43.0 WAR (42.9 if his pitching WAR is added in) across those 6 seasons. I don’t think anyone else on the ballot really has that high of a peak (even disregarding the consecutive years nature of Sisler’s peak) – I have Goslin and Nettles in the high 30s. Sisler had 29.6 WAA during those 6 years. His overall numbers don’t look very good, but that’s due to the… Read more »
mosc
Guest
He has the same number of seasons over 5WAA as nettles, just as one example there are lots others on this ballot. I think he compares favorably with Killebrew coincidentally and that’s about it. I also personally use an increasingly strong negative “strength of competition” push as we go back in time. This was an earlier game and batting .420 needs to be kept firmly in context. Sisler was no Ted Williams with the bat even at his peak. Honestly I think he’s most like Norm Cash who played in an integrated league at the height of baseball and got… Read more »
robbs
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Norm Cash did get a lot of love from my father’s generation of Detroit baseball fans, possibly because he bought 3/4 of them beers.

mosc
Guest
Also, can we be clear what we’re calling a “Koufax type”? To me the phrase refers to a a 4-year or 7-year period of historic dominance. Sisler over 4 or 7 years did not put up stats that rank in the top 10 of anybody ever. He has more peak than the rest of the current holdovers maybe but that’s a far cry from a Ruth/Gehrig/Williams/Hornsby/etc type 4/7 year peak. Koufax on the other hand over 4/7 years was right up there with more consistent all time guys like Clemens/Unit/etc. I’ve also discussed how I think Koufax, Ford, and Drysdale… Read more »
Hartvig
Guest
In defense of Sisler, he was in the top 5 of WAR for position players (both leagues) for 6 years in a row and the #1 guy twice. And neither of those were his best (9.8 WAR) season. That ain’t chopped liver when you figure the guys he was competing against were Ruth, Cobb, Eddie Collins, Tris Speaker, Rogers Hornsby, Joe Jackson plus Harry Heilmann and Frankie Frisch. Every one of those guys except for Jackson (who has the same short peak problem Frisch has plus a little issue with some gambling) either have been or will be slam dunks… Read more »
David P
Guest
I generally agree with Hartvig re: Sisler. His peak from 1916-1922 is behind Hornsby and Ruth (fewer PAs) but equal to Cobb and Speaker. No one else was even close. So basically Sisler was the 3rd, 4th or 5th best player in baseball for a 7 year period. That at least deserves consideration. He also had one of the highest consecutive year peaks for a first baseman. Behind Gehrig, Pujols, and Foxx, equal to Mize and Bagwell. He also threw in 2.5 pitching WAR. Again, probably not COG-level but someone who at least deserves a look. Beyond that, I’m not… Read more »
mosc
Guest
7 year peak eh? 47.2 WAR is impressive but How does it rank compared to all time greats? Well, you don’t have to mention any of the top 10 WAR guys. In fact, I looked for the highest career war of ANYBODY who failed to reach 47.2 WAR in a 7 year consecutive periodn. Answer? Cap Anson (#27 in total WAR) who’s 7-year peak is 43.7 WAR. Guys from that point down on the total career position player WAR table sometimes reach 7year 47.2 WAR and sometimes don’t (for example Boggs and Brett did but Chipper and Beltre didn’t). I… Read more »
Voomo Zanzibar
Guest
George Sisler, 1917 – 1922: .377 / .420 / .541 / .962 / 162 104 Runs 207 Hits 35 2B 14 3B 9 HR 84 RBI 40 SB 19 SO 7.2 WAR (good fielding 1B) _______ After his .420 season he got a severe case of sinusitis and missed the whole next year. Never got back to the same level, but some nice seasons outside of that peak, by slash stats. But the offensive era tempers some of that. And WAR is not impressed. In 1927 Sisler had 201 hits, batted .327, led the league in SB, struck out only… Read more »
mosc
Guest
I feel the best player on this ballot is Roy Campanella. His negro league and barnstorming performances starting at a ridiculously young age are remarkable. By my estimate he caught more games prior to joining the MLB than he did in it and as thus I feel like the 3 time MVP is showing less than half of his value. To me, he is inarguably one of the greatest catchers in baseball history let alone a borderline COG candidate. Hartnett’s RFIELD is 12. 12! If you think that has validity, don’t vote for him. He has long been considered the… Read more »
Dr. Doom
Guest

I finally get to vote for a player who’s been on the periphery of my ballot for ages!

Also, thanks to all of you who helped support Kevin Brown last round! That was an impressive showing. Perhaps we’ll see someone else make a strong run this time ’round… though if it’s Brown again, I won’t be sad about it.

Kevin Brown
Luis Tiant
Roy Campanella

latefortheparty
Guest

Goose Goslin
Graig Nettles
Roy Campanella

Hub Kid
Guest

Luis Tiant, Graig Nettles, Dwight Evans

Good point about Sisler from Artie Z- that is an amazing and sustained peak before the injury; although it illustrates the point that a ‘Koufax type’ career only works for reputation if the player retires after the injury. 7 average-pretty good years afterward the 7 years of greatness really hurt his stats based case, although Sisler is a BBWAA Hall of Famer, just like Koufax.

The hit against Sisler’s WAA is pretty brutal; although I can also see that his walk rate and OBP are pretty low throughout his career, especially for his era.

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest
Sisler had a half a rookie year, a very good 2nd year, and then raked for 6 years. Illness ended his greatness. .361 / .404 / .510 / .914 / 155+ … for those first 8 years. Are they a product of his era, or was he “great” ? . . Players who slashed all the following thresholds over their first 8 years: .350 / .400 / .500 / 150+ . .353 / .488 / .642 / 195 … Ted Williams .366 / .414 / .513 / 180 … Ty Cobb .365 / .434 / .527 / 177 … Joe… Read more »
Hartvig
Guest
Geez, I hadn’t thought about old “Tub of Goo” in a long time. I suppose they never tried to convert him because he had no natural position on the field and they probably figured he wouldn’t hit well enough to be a 1st baseman/DH type. And while the slash line is amazing the final #- OPS+- also puts it into context. Sisler managed to do it from age 22 to age 29- which pretty closely coincides with what is a normal players career peak. 34 guys have managed to do that over their entire careers. Among current players Joey Votto… Read more »
Scary Tuna
Guest
Career OPS+ for position players currently on the ballot: PLAYER OPS+ PA Harmon Killebrew 143 9833 Dave Winfield 130 12358 Goose Goslin 128 9829 Dwight Evans 127 10569 Gabby Hartnett 126 7297 Edd Rousch 126 8148 George Sisler 125 9012 Roy Campanella 123 4815 Irish Muesel 118 5309 George Burns 113 7244 Richie Ashburn 111 9736 Billy Southworth 111 4925 Graig Nettles 110 10228 Wally Pipp 104 7838 Earl Sheely 104 5268 Ira Flagstead 103 4794 Charlie Jamieson 101 7511 Milt Stock 97 6956 Joseph Schultz 93 2142 Frank O’Rourke 69 4608 Mike McNally 54 1245
Scary Tuna
Guest
Career OPS+ of at least 143 over more plate appearances than Harmon Killebrew: PLAYER OPS+ PA STATUS Eddie Mathews 143 10100 COG Member Alex Rodriguez 143 11630 Not yet eligible – Born 1975 Sam Crawford 146 10036 Not yet eligible – Born 1880 Mike Schmidt 147 10062 COG Member Jim Thome 147 10313 COG Member Frank Robinson 154 11742 COG Member Mel Ott 155 11348 COG Member Hank Aaron 155 13941 COG Member Frank Thomas 156 10075 COG Member Willie Mays 156 12496 COG Member Tris Speaker 157 11992 Not yet eligible – Born 1888 Stan Musial 159 12717 COG… Read more »
Voomo Zanzibar
Guest
Sure is harder to have a high batting average nowadays when nobody shortens up with two strikes anymore. All or nothing. Amazing what Paul Goldschmidt is doing right now. .357 BA with 59 SO in 291 PA That is a strikeout every 5.1 PA. ________________ Minimum 500 PA, highest batting averages, with PA less than 6 times strikeouts: .351 … Manny .350 … Larry Walker .340 … Matt Holliday .338 … Jimmie Foxx .337 … Mo Vaughn .336 … Carlos Gonzalez .335 … Bobby Abreu .333 … Manny .332 … Manny .331 … Lance Berkman .331 … Michael Cuddyer .330… Read more »
Voomo Zanzibar
Guest
Goldschmidt for his career: .300 BA, with 495 SO in 2244 PA. That is “Grab Some Pine” every 4.53 PA ______________________________________ First 5 seasons of a career (minimum 1500 PA), Highest BA with less than 5 Plate Appearances per SO: .311 … Dick Allen .305 … Mike Trout .300 … Paul Goldschmidt .299 … Carlos Gonzalez .297 … Travis Hafner .293 … Tim Salmon .289 … Don Clendenon .289 … Chris Johnson .287 … Danny Tartabull ________________________ Before 1987: .311 … Dick Allen .289 … Don Clendenon .281 … Greg Luzinski .280 … Willie Stargell .275 … Bobby Bonds .275… Read more »
Andy
Guest

Kevin Brown, Goose Goslin, Hoyt Wilhelm

Steven
Guest

George Sisler, Goose Goslin, Gabby Hartnett.

Hartvig
Guest

Campanella, Hartnett, Lyons

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

Among First Basemen, George Sisler is:

25th … WAR

19th … JAWS
Wedged between Mark McGwire and Keith Hernandez

7th …. WAR7 (best 7 seasons)

67.7 … Gehrig
61.6 … Pujols
59.4 … Foxx
48.8 … Mize
48.2 … Bagwell
47.7 … Greenberg
47.2 … Sisler
47.2 … Brouthers
47.0 … Conner
46.4 … Helton

So, only three 1st Basemen with a significantly better peak, so sayeth WAR.

mosc
Guest

Fractionally better that Todd Helton, ignoring the fact that first base is far from the best place to find all time greats to begin with, is NOT a Sisler appreciation stat IMHO :0

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

First 8 Seasons of a Career:
____________________________________

1400+ Hits
2000+ Total Bases
200+ Steals
700+ Runs

Ty Cobb
George Sisler
Ichiro Suzuki
_____________

.350+ BA
150+ OPS

Ty Cobb
Joe Jackson
Al Simmons
George Sisler
Ted Williams
Wade Boggs
________________

400 Extra Base Hits
100 Triples

Stan Musial
Paul Waner
Jim Bottomley
Rogers Hornsby
Goose Goslin
George Sisler
______________________

.400 + OBP
Strikeout Less than once in 20 PA

Since 1900, minimum 3000 PA

Paul Waner
Arky Vaughan
Jackie Robinson
Johnny Pesky
Joe Sewell
Stan Musial
Earle Combs
George Sisler
Mickey Cochrane
_______________

mosc
Guest

How about doing one that doesn’t involve hits, batting average, or low strikeout totals (three things that don’t matter)? OBP, extra base hits, OPS+, WAR, any of those in any combination he’s not going to be top 10.

And I will voice again that penalizing players for starting early. If you want to cherry pick Sisler’s peak at least do some “through age 29” stuff.

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest
Well mosc, my cherry picking was just to illustrate who his comps were for the skills that he had. I didn’t draw any conclusions. Though if i did, i might disagree with you, as in my fantasy as GM i would build a whole lineup of base stealers who don’t make outs while standing in the batters box. ________________________ Though, to your request: First 8 Seasons: .400 OBP 400 XBH 150 OPS+ 40 WAR by WAR: Ted Williams Albert Pujols Mickey Mantle Wade Boggs Stan Musial Rogers Hornsby Johnny Mize Jeff Bagwell Lou Gehrig George Sisler (10th) Honus Wagner Frank… Read more »
David Horwich
Guest

Side note:

With his no-hitter today, Max Scherzer has posted consecutive Game Scores of 100 and 97. As far as I can tell, 197 is the highest combined Game Score for consecutive 9-inning starts in the searchable era (1914-present).

Some other notable consecutive game totals:

187 – Nolan Ryan, July 1973 (100, 87)
186 – Roger Clemens, August 1998 (99, 87)
185 – Bobby Witt, June 1994 (99, 86)

I’m pretty sure Scherzer has the highest total, but it is possible there’s someone with a combined total greater than Ryan’s.

Also to note, Clemens had an 85 Game Score in the start preceding his 99.

Richard Chester
Guest

R. A. Dickey had consecutive starts with game scores of 95 and 96 for 191 in 2012.

David Horwich
Guest

Thanks, Richard.

SInce I was only checking to see if anyone could top Scherzer, rather than trying to generate a complete list of highest combined GS in consecutive 9-inning games, I only checked pitchers with a Game Score of 99+ – thankfully, there are only 20 such (9-inning) games in the searchable era.

Richard Chester
Guest
I found three other pitchers who pitched 2 consecutive games consisting of a 1-hitter and a no-hitter (9 IP). They are Dazzy Vance (1925), Howard Ehmke (1923) and Jim Tobin (1944). There has been one other game in which a pitcher lost his perfect game on an HBP in the 9th inning with two out. It occurred on 7-4-1908. Here’s the story. Lefthander Hooks Wiltse pitches a 10-inning no-hitter for the Giants over the Phillies 1-0. He loses his bid for a perfect 9 innings when‚ with 2 outs‚ he hits Phils P George McQuillan with a pitch on a… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest
When I think back to the view of baseball history I had in the late 1950s and early 1960s, this dismissal of Sisler seems sacrilegious. He was unquestionably among the greatest players ever. (It didn’t hurt that his sons kept his name alive at a time when there had not yet been too many sons of great players in the game.) Moreover, he was Branch Rickey’s first great find (Rickey took Sisler, as a pitcher, along with him from the University of Michigan, where he’d managed him, to St. Louis – my recollection is that Sisler debuted by outpitching Walter… Read more »
Richard Chester
Guest

epm: In what way is it meant that Sisler’s spectacular numbers were empty?

Lawrence Azrin
Guest
@60/RC; In #43 above, you are referring to “…it was Bill James who prepared me for this… – I was amazed at how relatively empty Sisler’s spectacular numbers were…” From what I remember James wrote in his BJNHA (sorry, I am at work, don’t have it in front of me): – rated him about 25th all-time amongst first basemen – “one of the most overrated players in MLB history” – called his .340 ‘an empty .340’ – defensive value not close to his reputation – figured out that 61% of his value was from hitting singles, the highest vallue in… Read more »
Richard Chester
Guest
LA: Thanks for the response. I’m an old-timer and it looks like I’m stuck in epm’s first two sentences. It looks like Sisler’s drawbacks, even in his best years, was that he was short on HRs and BBs. That tends to suppress his OBP and OPS+. But his .420 BA in 1922 was 135 points above the AL average, a mark that few players have matched. He was also an excellent base-stealer. Among first-basemen he is second career-wise in SB, is 1 of only 4 to lead the league, and is the only one with 6 seasons of 30+ SB.… Read more »
Lawrence Azrin
Guest
@95/RC; Let’s go all-WAR on Sisler: WAR Position Players: 1917 AL 5.9 (5th) 1918 AL 6.8 (1st) 1919 AL 6.1 (4th) 1920 AL 9.8 (2nd) 1921 AL 5.7 (5th) 1922 AL 8.7 (1st) Pretty impressive – one of the best five players (at least) in the AL every year, over a six year period. BUT, is that enough?? I don’t know how to manipulate the B-R search features to find similar cases. There may be other non-HOF players with a similar profile, in which case Sisler’s feat above isn’t quite as good an argument. The first first baseman I thought… Read more »
Richard Chester
Guest

Don’t know if this will help but here are 5 position players (non-HOFers, retired) with exactly 6 seasons of 5.7+ WAR, same as Sisler.

Ken Boyer
Bobby Grich
Nomar Garciaparra
Alan Trammell
Jeff Bagwell

mosc
Guest

Nomar is a VERY good comp IMHO.

e pluribus munu
Guest
Hi Richard, Sorry I was slow to respond, but Lawrence got the gist of what I’d reply, and more, though he went a little beyond what James wrote (at least I can’t find the 61% singles reference). James rated Sisler just under Mickey Vernon (not a good call, I think). I suspect he wrote about Sisler in his annual Abstracts earlier – it seems to me that my own rethinking of Sisler predates the 2001 BJHBA by many years, and I certainly didn’t come by it myself. I can see a Sisler/Koufax parallel – although Koufax was a power pitcher,… Read more »
J.R.
Guest

Killebrew, Winfield, Sisler

Dr. Doom
Guest
Vote Update! And I can’t believe I’m getting to write this, but… it’s WIDE-OPEN RACE! I mean, seriously – anyone could win! Usually, even by this early (10 votes – J.R. @45) the thing is virtually locked-up. We have a two-horse race at catcher with a couple of other strong hitters right behind, but the margins are so slim at this point that ANYONE could come back to take it! Also, rounds like this often lead to others storing up extra rounds, which I’m sure some of them would appreciate. On to it. * = off the bubble: 5 –… Read more »
Paul E
Guest

Winfield
Sisler
Grimes – Most Wins 1893 – 1934
439 Young
416 Johnson
373 Alexander
373 Mathewson
326 Plank
270 Grimes
269 Nichols
266 Rixey
254 Faber
249 Willis

This is the context in which Grimes was remembered when he was elected to the Hall of Fame. A lot of bums on this list, however, somehow they made Cooperstown. Apparently, with an ERA+ of 108, Grimes may have been the first guy ever to pitch to the score

Chris C
Guest

Eckersley, Ashburn, Killewbrew

oneblankspace
Guest
Thinkging things through before I vote… on the ballot, for whom I have previously voted: Killebrew Lyons Ashburn Wilhelm KLAW! Holdovers I might also consider: Campanella Nettles Winfield Newcomers worth a look: George Sisler George Burns — this is the George Burns who turned an unassisted triple play. The George Burns who hit for the cycle was born in 1889, and the George Burns who had a radio show with Gracie Allen was born Nathan Birnbaum in 1896. (Retrosheet.org description: 9/14/1923 AL Boston Red Sox vs AL Cleveland Indians Fenway Park I Top 2 Inning Score V-H 0 – 2… Read more »
Dave Humbert
Guest
Seems a good time to review remaining candidates again now that some “open” rounds may be coming…. Each birth year shows their new candidates: names without HOF/Other designators are the more likely ones: Possible COG Inductees (As of 1893 ballot – 97 in, 22 to go) 1893: 1 HOF (Sisler) + 3 HOF (Grimes/Haines/Roush) 1892: 1 HOF (Schalk) 1891: Vance + 3 HOF (Bancroft/Maranville/Rixey) 1890: 2 HOF (Carey/S. Rice) + 1 Other (U. Shocker) 1889: Coveleski 1888: Speaker, Faber, Wheat 1887: W. Johnson, P. Alexander, E. Collins + J. Jackson + 1 HOF (Hooper) 1886: Cobb, Baker + 1 HOF… Read more »
Dave Humbert
Guest
Oops: Drysdale’s batting WAR is 5.9, not 7.7 (67 total WAR is still impressive) McGinnity managed to condense 60 WAR into a 10 year career 1899-1908. 246 wins in 3400 innings pitched shows he was a winner and a real workhorse. He also managed better than 100 more wins than losses – few can make that claim. I think he will generate some good debate. Jack Powell heads up the list of obscure players over 55 WAR I’d never heard of before (1897-1912, 245W-254L, 2.97 ERA, 106 ERA+, 4400 innings) seems to have been just good enough to stay for… Read more »
Hartvig
Guest
Wonderful stuff. There’s much to talk about here and I’m sure others will be weighing in but I’ll start with the “Got a shots”. There are only 2 on this list that I’m currently strongly leaning towards, Baker & Vance. I am prone to giving credit for time lost to segregation or WW2, much less so with injuries or for other reasons. That said I still think Baker & Vance belong. Even with the playing time that they missed I still think they are at worst right at the cutoff line as far as qualifying. Even if you think that… Read more »
Dave Humbert
Guest
Good points Hartvig, I too am leaning toward Baker (no for Wheat). Many voters will have issues with J. Jackson’s situation and not give him any credit for missed time. Your points and discussion on Sisler have convinced me he is not a viable option, and I am not thrilled about the other “what ifs” (Joss is interesting but career too short). The pitchers will be hardest to deal with, and I’m feeling Walsh’s sudden decline after injury (despite his peak) and Coveleski’s career just do not cut it – both were spitball kings as you mentioned. Faber and Willis… Read more »
Dr. Doom
Guest

Thanks for the summary; it was excellent.

Two other factors:

Depending on how quickly/slowly rounds go up & down, we’re ALSO going to run into BBWAA voting – and you know what that means! That means more potential Hall of Famers, which means more spots in the COG! We’ll ALSO need to account for the 1971 birth year when that comes around, which will be at the tail end or after our voting ends. Ayayay!

Hartvig
Guest
I’m really hoping that the BBWAA comes thru with more than 2 selections because I’m pretty sure that Pedro and Pudge are both locks for the COG. I’m thinking that Griffey & Piazza are probably safe bets & it’s not out of the question that either Bagwell or Raines could see a big enough uptick in support to make it as well. I know that there’s no chance of Trammell getting in but I’m hoping that at least in his final year of eligibility he will garner enough support to finally break 40% in the voting. Meanwhile I will continue… Read more »
David P
Guest

Hartvig – I looked before and it’s quite rare that someone makes a 20% voting jump in one year in order to get elected. (what Bagwell and Raines would need).

Larkin did it, but the ballot was very empty at that point. That’s no longer the case.

Plus, there will be some idiot voters who will claim that Griffey should go into the Hall by himself and only vote for him.

So while Griffey is virtually guaranteed election, and Piazza has a very good shot, I’d be shocked if anyone else gets in.

mosc
Guest
I know it’s unpopular on here but I don’t view Whitaker as a hall of famer let alone a COG member. That said, I really cannot understand any HOF line that doesn’t put Trammel above. Especially because the HOF is not supposed to ignore his general character, managing, and other front office contributions I don’t get the Trammel voting. I can understand not voting for Pudge, but not when somebody leaves of Trammel. All that aside, I don’t think he’s the best non-roid guy who’s failed to get elected. Right now I’d say that’s Schilling. Position player for me it… Read more »
bstar
Guest

Good stuff, Dave, but is George Davis eligible? I thought you had to have 50% of your PAs in the 20th Century, and Davis only has 45%.

Dave Humbert
Guest
Good question bstar. I did the evaluations assuming that Dahlen, Davis, and Cy Young are all eligible for the COG, until Doug announces otherwise. All 3 have their cases (Dahlen being the weakest as David P @66 mentions with low peak WAR). Davis and Young would be hard to pass up. But are they really eligible in the first place? Where should the cutoff be – at pre 1900 or pre 1901? I first looked at: Percentage of games played for career: Pre-1900 Dahlen: 45.3% Davis 53.5% C. Young 51.2% 1900+ Dahlen: 54.7% Davis 46.5% C. Young 48.8% Pre-1901 Dahlen:… Read more »
Hartvig
Guest
I seem to recall at some point birtelcom talking about Cy Young being the cutoff point for who would be included in the COG voting because he was elected by the BBWAA. That said, until the happy day that birtelcom finally does rejoin us I think that this is Doug’s baby and whatever he decides is fine by me. On the IN side I can see where the argument about Young having been elected by the BBWAA does make some sense. I suspect an outsider looking at the 2 lists side-by-side would certainly notice it and that there would have… Read more »
David P
Guest
My two cents is that we should continue to add players by birth year, not by how much time they played in the 19th vs 20th century. In other words, it makes little sense to me to leave George Davis off of the 1870 ballot while including others from the same birth year. I say put him on and let the voters decide if he belongs in the COG or not. I also say we go back to Cy Young’s birth year since – for better or for worse – he was elected by the BBWAA. And if can’t get… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest

Cy Young won 225 games from 1901-11 and generated over 70 WAR. It doesn’t make much sense to me to exclude him from the COG because he did even more before 1901.

This argument will not fit Davis and Dahlen – good as they were, their post-1900 stats would not be COGworthy on their own.

David P
Guest
I suspect that Dahlen and Wallace may find it harder to get in than what Dave H is suggesting in his #52. Perhaps Crawford as well though he doesn’t have quite the issues of the other two. 1) Both Dahlen and Wallace are high career WAR, low peak WAR guys, similar in that regard to Lou Whitaker. Dahlen is 7th is career shortstop WAR, Wallace is 13th. But in 7 Year WAR, they’re only 17th and 21st (Wallace is actually ahead of Dahlen, despite the lower career WAR). 2) Some voters may dismiss/downplay what they did in the 19th century.… Read more »
Hartvig
Guest
Those are the exact 3 that I was thinking of what I said I might be convinced otherwise about being slam dunks. I know that one of the things that we should be doing is considering players as what they were in their own time- in other words, did Bobby Wallace have as big an impact on the game and teams he played for in the 1890’s & 1900’s as did Barry Larkin did in the 1980’s & 90’s, not just if the 2 were standing in front of you which would you take. But I also don’t think that… Read more »
Dave Humbert
Guest
David P #66: Agreed that Dahlen, Crawford, and Wallace are the weakest of my “slam dunk” predictions, but here’s some counters: 1) Dahlen and Wallace do have high career WAR, low peak WAR similarities to Whitaker. Did not stop us from putting Whitaker in the COG for his consistency over a long career (20 years for Dahlen and 25 for Wallace shows their durability). Both may have been the Whitaker/Trammells of their time. 2) Voters downplaying what they did in the 19th century may hurt Dahlen a bit, but Wallace was a pitcher from 1894-1896 and not a position player… Read more »
David P
Guest
Thanks for the excellent reply David H! #106 Here are some counters: 1) The advantage that Whitaker had was time. Neither Wallace or Dahlen will have that luxury. They’ll come onto the ballot very late in the process and either get elected or not. On the other hand, there may not be many decent alternatives when they join the ballot. 4) Of course, name recognition can also hurt. Many people had the view that Whitaker was a good, not great player. That view was formed by the fact that many of us remember his career. No one here remembers Wallace… Read more »
Dave Humbert
Guest
David P, thanks for the counter-counters. As you pointed out, I did mean Vizquel when thinking of aging shortstops. I did not really pay attention to Wallace’s “decline” years, but 1913-1918 only gave him -.1 WAR as you point out. 1894-1896 he was primarily a pitcher and generated -1.0 WAR with the bat. 9 years of his career generated -1.1 WAR (not a regular early or late, but did not embarrass himself either – just under replacement level throughout). His pitching WAR of 6.1 is separate from his 70.2 as I mentioned. The funny part of my oversight is that… Read more »
Stephen
Guest

Killebrew, Ashburn, Eckersley

Scary Tuna
Guest

Killebrew, Winfield, Wilhelm.

Luis Gomez
Guest

Nettles, Killebrew, Winfield.

RonG
Guest

Campanella, Tiant, Evans

koma
Guest

Harmon Killebrew, Dennis Eckersley, George Sisler

MJ
Guest

Rick Reuschel, Kevin Brown, Ted Lyons

JEV
Guest

Campanella, Hartnett, Goslin

Kirk
Guest

Killebrew, Goslin and Reuschel

Dr. Doom
Guest

It’s been just over 24 hours since my last update, but in spite of only adding a few votes, there’s been DRASTIC movement on the leaderboard, so I’d like to post another update, through MJ @67 (17th ballot):

6 – Roy Campanella*, Harmon Killebrew*
5 – Gabby Harnett, Graig Nettles
====================25% (5)
4 – Goose Goslin*, George Sisler
3 – Kevin Brown*, Dennis Eckersley, Luis Tiant, Dave Winfield
2 – Richie Ashburn, Dwight Evans, Ted Lyons, Hoyt Wilhelm*
====================10% (2)
1 – Rick Reuschel

Seriously, I’m really enjoying the openness of this round! It’s pretty cool after quite a few rounds in a row with an obvious candidate.

Gary Bateman
Guest

Sisler, Goslin, Ashburn

David P
Guest

Nettles, Campanella, Tiant

Mo
Guest

Ashburn Reuschel Evans

Brent
Guest

Brown, Killebrew and Goslin

dr-remulak
Guest

Campanella for the win, Nettles, Winfield.

Bryan O'Connor
Editor

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals:

Brown 43.3
Reuschel 40.6
Tiant 37.5
Lyons 36.7
Nettles 35.7
Evans 34.9
Eckersley 34.3
Ashburn 33.9
Killebrew 33.0
Sisler 32.0
Goslin 31.7
Winfield 31.1
Hartnett 30.3
Wilhelm 28.7
Grimes 26.1
Roush 25.3
Campanella 19.2
Haines 14.2

Four Hall of Fame newcomers, each of whom had a lot of negative WAA seasons on his resume, while only Sisler has even a mild case for the CoG. Meanwhile, Kevin Brown and Jeff Bagwell and Bobby Grich are not Hall of Famers.

Brown, Reuschel, Eckersley

Matt G.
Guest

Mine:

Kevin Brown
Luis Tiant
Dennis Eckersley

Joseph
Guest

Sisler, Nettles, and Eckersley.

Thank you.

no statistician but
Guest
OK. I don’t vote in these things, but here’s how I seen the serious candidates currently on the ballot: Killebrew—one dimensional slugger. Campanella—short erratic career, and notwithstanding his presumed greatness in the NNL, there’s not enough to substantiate it on the basis of the records we have. Apocryphal legend isn’t enough. Compare his known stats with those of Josh Gibson, and what you see is a shadow. Further, Campy’s SABR bio is full of misinformation, blatant and otherwise, that does him no credit. He was NOT the IL MVP in 1947 or even close. Hank Sauer was. Sherm Lollar had… Read more »
Hartvig
Guest

With the exception of Campanella we are pretty much in sync on everyone that you commented on.

The Chuck Klein comparison with Sisler is actually pretty good- better than I thought it would be until I looked more closely. Ralph Kiner works pretty well too. Nomar Garciaparra isn’t too bad either. I don’t think he would be a bad choice but I also think there are some that are more deserving.

brp
Guest

Vote:
Hartnett
Nettles
Wilhelm

T-Bone
Guest

Reuschel, Wilhelm, Campanella

BillH
Guest

Sisler, Winfield, Nettles

Darien
Guest

Roush, Killebrew, and Eckersley.

Steve
Guest

Harmon Killebrew; Hoyt Wilhelm; George Sisler

Richard Chester
Guest

Sisler, Hartnett, Goslin

Dr. Doom
Guest

I kind of think we need daily vote updates at this point, because we’re so hotly-contested this round. So here you go, through Richard Chester’s vote, the 31st, with * marking the guys who are off the bubble:

10 – Graig Nettles
9 – Roy Campanella*, Harmon Killebrew*, George Sisler
======================25% (8)
7 – Dennis Eckersly, Goose Goslin*, Gabby Hartnett
6 – Kevin Brown*
5 – Luis Tiant, Hoyt Wilhelm*, Dave Winfield
4 – Richie Ashburn, Rick Reuschel
3 – Dwight Evans
2 – Ted Lyons
1 – Edd Roush

JEV
Guest

Looks like Grimes has a vote too (#49 Paul E)

Dr. Doom
Guest

You are correct! Thanks! I didn’t notice that one.

Here’s the corrected list, which also includes Shard’s vote below:

11 – George Sisler
10 – Roy Campanella*, Graig Nettles
9 – Harmon Killebrew*
======================25% (8)
7 – Dennis Eckersly, Goose Goslin*, Gabby Hartnett
6 – Kevin Brown*, Dave Winfield
5 – Richie Ashburn, Luis Tiant, Hoyt Wilhelm*
4 – Rick Reuschel
3 – Dwight Evans
2 – Ted Lyons
1 – Burleigh Grimes, Edd Roush

David Horwich
Guest

Dr. D –

I believe the above count through #117 was missing 2 ballots, #70 and either #43 or #69 (which are identical). I’ll post my current count at the bottom of this thread.

Shard
Guest

Richie Ashburn – George Sisler – Roy Campanella

Joseph
Guest

I think you just created a three way tie between Nettles, Sisler, and Campy.

aweb
Guest

Brown
Killebrew
Nettles

oneblankspace
Guest

Voting for :

Sisler
Lyons
Wilhelm

Josh
Guest

George Sisler, Gabby Hartnett, Dave Winfield

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