Remembering Willie Mays (1931-2024)

96 Replies

Willie Mays‘ passing last month serves to remind baseball fans of his spectacular and singular career. Widely regarded as baseball’s most complete player, Mays excelled at all facets of the game, playing at a high level for almost the entirety of a career spanning 23 years. His passing also reduces to a very slender thread our connection with those still living who graced major league ballparks in the 1950s. More on Willie and 1950s baseball are after the jump.

In terms of star power, the 1950s very likely marks baseball’s pinnacle for everyday players. Consider that, of only 21 players in the 100 Batting WAR club, six played a significant portion of their careers in the decade of the 1950s. Here is that club, sorted by career end date, with the six stars of the 1950s highlighted.

100 Batting WAR Club
Rk Player WAR From To
▼		 Age
1 Albert Pujols 101.5 2001 2022 21-42
2 Álex Rodríguez 117.6 1994 2016 18-40
3 Barry Bonds 162.8 1986 2007 21-42
4 Rickey Henderson 111.1 1979 2003 20-44
5 Mike Schmidt 106.9 1972 1989 22-39
6 Joe Morgan 100.6 1963 1984 19-40
7 Henry Aaron 143.1 1954 1976 20-42
8 Frank Robinson 107.2 1956 1976 20-40
9 Willie Mays 156.2 1948 1973 17-42
10 Mickey Mantle 110.2 1951 1968 19-36
11 Stan Musial 128.5 1941 1963 20-42
12 Ted Williams 121.8 1939 1960 20-41
13 Mel Ott 110.9 1926 1947 17-38
14 Lou Gehrig 113.7 1923 1939 20-36
15 Rogers Hornsby 127.0 1915 1937 19-41
16 Babe Ruth 162.2 1914 1935 19-40
17 Eddie Collins 124.3 1906 1930 19-43
18 Ty Cobb 151.4 1905 1928 18-41
19 Tris Speaker 135.0 1907 1928 19-40
20 Honus Wagner 131.0 1897 1917 23-43
21 Nap Lajoie 106.9 1896 1916 21-41


Notably, three of those six players were African-Americans, as are five of the six players who followed them into this exclusive club. Long deprived of the opportunity to play on the game’s biggest stage, the emergence of a plethora black stars in the 1950s is the defining characteristic of the decade.

I mentioned our rapidly shrinking connection to the 1950s through players still living who played in that decade. Here is that shrinking connection visually.


That 75.5 WAR for the 1950s by players still living today is comprised of 76 WAR by the following seven players, and -0.5 WAR for the remaining 120 players.

1950s WAR by Players Still Living
Rk Player WAR From To Age
1 Rocky Colavito 17.5 1955 1959 21-25
2 Charlie Maxwell 16.0 1950 1959 23-32
3 Luis Aparicio 12.2 1956 1959 22-25
4 Bill Mazeroski 8.8 1956 1959 19-22
5 Bob Skinner 8.7 1954 1959 22-27
6 Tony Kubek 7.6 1957 1959 21-23
7 Bill White 5.5 1956 1959 22-25


I mentioned at the outset that Mays is widely regarded as the most complete player in the game’s history, meaning he excelled at all of the five skills most necessary for success in baseball, namely running, throwing, fielding, hitting for average and hitting for power. Let’s look at those skills as reflected in these all-time top 10 lists.

Career Runs Above Average
Rk Player Rbat Player Rfield Player Rbaser
1 Babe Ruth 1327 Brooks Robinson 294 Rickey Henderson 144
2 Barry Bonds 1128 Mark Belanger 241 Willie Wilson 121
3 Ted Williams 1050 Ozzie Smith 239 Tim Raines 115
4 Ty Cobb 995 Andruw Jones 235 Max Carey 96
5 Lou Gehrig 957 Adrian Beltre 216 Luis Aparicio 92
6 Henry Aaron 878 Roberto Clemente 205 Davey Lopes 83
7 Stan Musial 868 Andrelton Simmons 200 Barry Larkin 81
8 Rogers Hornsby 855 Willie Mays 185 Ozzie Smith 80
9 Tris Speaker 823 Carl Yastrzemski 184 Joe Morgan 80
10 Willie Mays 804 Jim Piersall 182 Kenny Lofton 79
          Willie Mays 79
Provided by Stathead.com: Found with Stathead. See Full Results.
Generated 6/26/2024.


Rbat encapsulates hitting for average and for power. Rfield combines fielding and throwing (and, indirectly, running). Rbaser measures baserunning, principally through base stealing. All of the metrics are represented as Runs Above Average. Mays ranks 10th, 8th and T-10th in the three metrics and is the only player making the top 10 on all three lists. In fact, only one other player (Ozzie Smith) makes it onto two of the lists. Are there players who are lurking just below the top 10 on all of these lists? The answer is an emphatic no. In fact, if we cut Mays’s totals in half, these are the only players who reach all of those halved marks.

Career 400+ Rbat, 90+ Rfield, 40+ Rbaser
Rk Player WAR Rbat Rfield Rbaser
1 Barry Bonds 162.8 1128 175 44
2 Willie Mays 156.2 804 185 79
3 Henry Aaron 143.1 878 98 44
4 Larry Walker 72.7 420 94 40
Provided by Stathead.com: Found with Stathead. See Full Results.
Generated 6/26/2024.


Just think about that for a moment: cutting Mays’s career totals in half brings only three other players into the mix, one who just creeps over the halved standard for one metric (Bonds), one who creeps over for two (Aaron), and one who creeps over for all three (Walker). Talk about a unique ballplayer.

Another basis of comparison is the similarity scores calculated by Baseball-Reference.com using Bill James’s methodology. Here are the same totals for the top 5 most similar players to Mays.

Top 5 Most Similar Players to Mays
Rk Player WAR Rbat Rfield Rbaser
  Willie Mays 156.2 804 185 79
1 Frank Robinson 107.2 729 22 35
2 Alex Rodriguez 117.6 640 23 56
3 Ken Griffey Jr. 83.8 440 3 16
4 Albert Pujols 101.5 684 138 4
5 Henry Aaron 143.1 878 98 44
Provided by Stathead.com: Found with Stathead. See Full Results.
Generated 6/26/2024.

Similarity scores are not adjusted for context, so are most useful for comparing contemporary players. Thus Robinson and Aaron, as Mays’s contemporaries, might actually be the most similar to him. Regardless, none of the R scores (which are context adjusted) for these players are very similar for all three metrics, with only Pujols somewhat similar in Rbat and Rfield, and only A-Rod in Rbat and Rbaser.

Another measure of a complete player is one who leads his league in both Offensive and Defensive WAR. Here are those players.

Players Leading League in oWAR and dWAR
Rk Player dWAR oWAR WAR
▼		 Season
1 Cal Ripken Jr. 3.5 9.2 11.5 1991
2 Willie Mays 2.0 8.4 10.5 1954
3 Lou Boudreau 3.0 8.3 10.4 1948
4 Cal Ripken Jr. 3.6 7.7 10.0 1984
5 Snuffy Stirnweiss 2.8 6.7 8.8 1945
6 Hughie Jennings 1.8 7.2 8.3 1896
7 George Davis 2.8 5.5 7.2 1905
8 Zoilo Versalles 3.0 5.3 7.2 1965
Provided by Stathead.com: Found with Stathead. See Full Results.
Generated 6/26/2024.


The list includes six shortstop seasons, one by a wartime second baseman and Mays’s MVP campaign for the world champion Giants. The preponderance of middle infielders is indicative of positional scarcity, a component of WAR not directly correlated with any of the 5 essential baseball skills. Positional scarcity is measured by Rpos, which typically awards 9 to 11 runs above average for a full-time shortstop season, as compared to the -1 Rpos runs that Mays received for each of his full-time CF seasons.

Mays’ prowess defensively helped him to compile 10 seasons leading his league in WAR, including 8 times leading the majors, the latter mark second only to Babe Ruth’s 9 seasons. Among those 8 seasons were a record 5 consecutive campaigns (1962-66) leading both leagues in WAR, and doing so aged 31 to 35 (Babe Ruth and Barry Bonds are the only players older than 35 to lead the majors in WAR).

Mays debuted as a 20 year-old in the 1951 season and claimed the NL RoY award for the pennant-winning Giants. In the World Series against the Yankees, Mays was matched against another 1951 rookie, Mickey Mantle. The two center-fielders would meet again in the Fall Classic eleven years later, and would be compared against one another throughout their careers and long after, as two of the best to ever play that marquee position.

Mays missed most of the 1952 season and all of the 1953 campaign to military service, but made up for it with his MVP season in 1954, leading the majors in BA, SLG and WAR, and leading the Giants to their first World Series title in 21 years. Thus began a record 13 consecutive seasons with 300 TB and 145 OPS+. The first twelve of those seasons also included 100+ runs, tied with Lou Gehrig for the most such seasons and the most consecutively.

In 1955, Mays led the majors in HR, SLG, OPS and TB, blasting a franchise record 51 long balls and also adding 24 stolen bases. That marked the majors’ first 40 HR/20 SB season, and only the eleventh 20/20 season. The next year, Mays’s 36 HR and majors-leading 40 SB marked the first ever 20 HR/40 SB season and just the second 25/25 campaign. Mays would reel off 25/25 seasons the next four years, those five consecutive seasons still a record, tied with Bobby Bonds (Mays’s godson Barry Bonds would almost certainly have recorded 7 such seasons consecutively if not for the 1994 player strike).

Mays led the majors a record 8 times in Power/Speed number (harmonic mean of season HR and SB totals), and passed Babe Ruth for the career record in 1960 when aged only 29; he would not relinquish that record until 1999, twenty-six years after his career ended. It would not be an exaggeration to say that Mays “invented” the Power/Speed game, as suggested by the chart below.


As the 1960s began, attention was focused on which (if any) of the game’s leading power hitters might reach Babe Ruth‘s record home run total of 714, at that time 180 more than Ruth’s closest pursuer Jimmie Foxx. Foxx was (now second to A-Rod) the fastest to reach 500 HR, cresting that plateau at age 32, compared to age 34 for Ruth. But, Foxx would add only 34 more HR after that point, as a messy personal life and a drinking problem (the two likely not unrelated) contributed to a premature end to his career.

Here is a visual look at Ruth’s pursuers.


The first four data series in the legend at the bottom of the chart are Mays and his contemporaries. Mays, Mantle and Mathews were all born in 1931, and Aaron in 1934, and their season-ending career HR totals are shown for each of the seasons on the horizontal axis. Thus, Mays reached his career total of 660 HR at the end of the 1973 season, the same year that Aaron almost caught Ruth, with 713 HR at the end of that season.

The last three data series, for Ruth, Foxx and Bonds, are plotted by age as shown above the horizontal axis line. For example, Foxx reached 500 HR (exactly) in his age 32 season, shown above 1963, Mays’s age 32 season.

At the end of the 1960 season, Mantle and Mathews were just shy of their 29th birthdays and running neck and neck, comfortably ahead of both Mays and Ruth’s pace, and far ahead of the 26 year-old Aaron. Mays passed Mantle and Mathews in 1964, but started falling off of Ruth’s pace in 1966, and was overtaken by Aaron five years after that. Ruth (708), Aaron (713) and Bonds (703) all reached virtually the same totals at age 39, with the latter two forging ahead with three more seasons in their careers, compared to just one for Ruth.

Mays and Aaron also tracked each other closely in other categories, as both reached 3000 hits and 1750 RBI in 1970, before finishing their careers with very similar stat lines, including almost identical rate stats.

Rk Player WAR From To Age G PA R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+
1 Willie Mays 156.2 1951 1973 20-42 2992 12497 2062 3283 523 140 660 1903 338 1464 1526 .302 .384 .557 .941 156
2 Henry Aaron 143.1 1954 1976 20-42 3298 13941 2174 3771 624 98 755 2297 240 1402 1383 .305 .374 .555 .928 155


It was also a saw-off in their 335 head-to-head matchups (a bit more than two seasons worth of games), again producing almost the same totals.

Willie Mays vs. Henry Aaron in Games Played Against Each Other
Rk Player From To Age G PA R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
1 Willie Mays 1954 1973 23-42 335 1362 217 361 54 8 77 210 30 151 154 .303 .380 .555 .935
2 Henry Aaron 1954 1973 20-39 335 1449 242 403 64 10 74 229 35 140 141 .312 .378 .549 .927


This head-to-head game late in their careers is perhaps a fitting tribute to their rivalry. On April 27, 1971, Aaron hit career home run no. 600, drawing ever closer to Mays, then with 633. But the 40 year-old Mays showed he wasn’t done yet, with a 4-hit game, including a game-winning RBI single in the 10th inning.

Trivia time.

  • Mays, Aaron and Ruth all finished their careers playing in the same city where those careers began, but for a different franchise.
  • Mays played in 4 World Series, with 71 AB in 20 World Series games, but nary a home run. But, his namesake, Willie Mays Aikens (born two weeks after the Giants’ triumph in the 1954 World Series) launched a record four dingers over the first four games of the 1980 Fall Classic. Quiz: which other player born proximate to a World Series is similarly named for a star player on that world championship team? Hint: he was a pitcher, but the player he is named for wasn’t; he holds the record as the youngest pitcher with a 9-inning complete game (during which he faced Mays’s 1952 outfield mate Bob Elliott, holding him hitless)
  • Mays played in the World Series in his first and last seasons, but was on the losing side both times, a feat just duplicated by Evan Longoria (assuming Longoria’s career has ended). Quiz: which player played in the World Series for the winning team in the first and last years of his career, in seasons at least 10 years apart? Hint: he is most famous for a post-season HBP in extra innings.

96 thoughts on “Remembering Willie Mays (1931-2024)”

  1. Richard Chester

    Quiz answer: The youngest pitcher to pitch a 9-inning complete game is Roger Hornsby McKee who was born on 9/16/1926. It was his only complete game.

    Reply ↓
    2. Doug

      Hornsby’s Cardinals claimed their first World Series title in 1926, besting the Yanks in 7 games in the only World Series that ended with a caught stealing (of Ruth).

      Hornsby and Frankie Frisch traded uniforms the next year in what Bill James termed a “challenge” trade, where the two principals are about the same age and play the same position. Hornsby (37) and Frisch (34) posted similar WAR for the remainder of their careers, though Frisch made it to four more World Series, winning two, while Hornsby made it to just one more, a loss with the Cubs in 1929. Frisch holds the record for most World Series (8) and most WS games (50) among players who never played for the Yankees.

      Reply ↓
      1. Paul E

        Somehow Bill James tries to make the argument that Hornsby was the largest horse’s rear-end in the history of baseball (along with Hal Chase and Dick Allen) and (somehow, further, therefore?) Eddie Collins and Joe Morgan were his superior. From 1927-1929, Hornsby led the NL in oWAR and WAR (in addition to OPS+) each and every season while setting a Braves franchise record (IIRC) in 1928 with a .387 BA
        James, perhaps like the rest of us, loses his objectivity while preaching the sanctity of the “bare” numbers…. apparently, he annoyed enough people in the course of his career to such an extent that the Hall of Fame didn’t believe he was worthy of a first-ballot induction.

        Reply ↓
        1. Doug

          Interesting the similarities between Hornsby and Dick Allen, another famed malcontent.

          Both get moved in a blockbuster trade from the team where they’ve become established stars. Then, despite solid numbers, get traded a second and third time in the following two seasons for lesser players, before sticking for a few seasons with the two Chicago teams, and then finishing their careers back in the city (Hornsby*) and with the team (Allen) where they started. While Hornsby got snubbed on the first ballot, Allen has been snubbed, period.

          *Hornsby actually did go back to the Cardinals, briefly, before being released and then signed, primarily as a manager, by the Browns

          Reply ↓
      2. John S

        Um, the Rahah was 30 at when he went to the Giants in 1926, and Frankie Frisch was 29. Hornsby was born 4/27/1896, and The Fordham Flash on 9/9/1897.

        Reply ↓
          1. Scary Tuna

            Immediately following your explanation of a challenge trade (“where the two principals are about the same age and play the same position”), you said, “Hornsby (37) and Frisch (34) posted similar WAR for the remainder of their careers…”.

            I believe this might have been misunderstood as you saying those were their respective ages at the time of the trade. Rather, you were presenting their remaining career WAR totals after the trade, pointing out how similar they were.

          2. Doug

            Thanks Scary. That was probably it.

            John: Scary’s explanation of the references to 37 and 34 is correct. Sorry if that was confusing.

    3. Doug Post author

      In the only start of his career, McKee made the most of the opportunity at bat, collecting a hit, walk, run, RBI and strikeout, each unique in his career (as was his lone batter struck out).

      After his ML and professional debut in 1943, McKee played 54 minor league games in 1944, 20 as a pitcher and the rest mainly as a first baseman, before a September call-up to the Phillies when he pitched in one game, his last as a major-leaguer. McKee would play over 1000 more minor league games from ’46 to ’57, but only five of them as a pitcher.

      Reply ↓
  2. Paul E

    Doug:
    “Notably, three of those six players were African-Americans (Mays, Aaron, Robinson among Williams, Musial, and Mantle), as are five of the six players who followed them into this exclusive club…..”
    I’m not able to quite follow the “as are five of the six players who followed them into this exclusive club” portion of this statement.
    Are you referring to Morgan, Henderson, Bonds and ? Arod? Pujols? Schmidt? Please advise

    Reply ↓
    1. Doug

      A-Rod and Pujols.

      While their ancestry may be only partly of African origin, suffice to say that had they been born 75 years earlier, they would not have played in the major leagues. Pujols, of course, was born in the DR, but has since become an American citizen.

      Reply ↓
      1. Paul E

        A little trivia (since you brought it up):
        In 1969 in the National League, the highest sixteen ( 1 thru 16) power speed numbers were compiled by one Latin (Cepeda) and 15 African Americans. Who was ranked #17 in power speed number in the Nl for 1969 but first for Caucasoids?

        Reply ↓
          2. Scary Tuna

            Bench is a surprising answer.

            My immediate reaction – before realizing you specified the NL – was to suggest one of this highly unlikely trio: Harmon Killebrew, Boog Powell, or Frank Howard. Turns out Killer, with 49 HR and 8 SB in his MVP year, had a power-speed number almost 50% higher than Bench (though both trailed Yaz and his 40 HR / 15 SB).

          3. Paul E

            If you go to the “Seasons” tab on Baseball-Reference, you can hover over “Batting” and then hit “Sabermetric” and “Power Speed #” should be to the far right. Pete Rose follows Bench (IIRC) for 1969

          4. Scary Tuna

            Thanks, Paul. I’m not sure I ever knew the Sabermetric Batting table was there. If so, I had certainly forgotten.

  3. no statistician but

    Regarding Willie Mays, when you add his fielding and base-running to the mix, there seems fair evidence that he was, in Doug’s words, “the most complete player in the game’s history,” although one might quibble that since Babe Ruth was not only a fine fielder but for several years an outstanding pitcher, “complete position player” would be a more precise wording to describe Willie.

    The following comments and interpretations of stats are aimed at presenting Mays’s career offensive production—minus base running—as it compares to his peers, the other great hitters of the live ball era, which I define as the period from 1920 to 1993. Cobb at one end of the period and Barry Bonds at the other are thus excluded, as are all lesser figures whose careers started or ended during the era but were not largely of it.

    The problem with so many interpretive stats, to my mind, is that they are cumulative, not what I’m looking for as a basic starting point. That leaves OPS+, and in fact OPS+ serves my purpose admirably. Here are the OPS+ numbers for the top 11 live ball era position players with 9500 plate appearances or more (Hornsby 9481):

    Babe Ruth       206
    Ted Williams     191
    Lou Gehrig      179
    Rogers Hornsby  175
    Mickey Mantle    172
    Jimmy Foxx      163
    Stan Musial      159
    Mel Ott          155
    Willie Mays       155
    Henry Aaron      155
    Frank Robinson   154 

    Only four other live ball era players exceed 148 on the OPS+ scale, all with fewer than 8000 PAs:

    Hank Greenberg   159
    Johnny Mize      158
    Dick Allen        156
    Joe DiMaggio     155

    But—does OPS+ give a true picture? 

    Let’s look at some seldom cited stats that measure batting effectiveness in various ways:

    Batting Runs(BR), Batting Wins(BW), Base-Out Runs Added(RE24), Win Probability Added
    (WPA); Situational Wins Added(WPA/LI), and Base-Out Wins Added(REW).

    By some strange coincidence, the eleven batters listed above dominate all these stats, too, although not always in the same descending order:

               BR       BW      RE24     WPA     WPA/LI     REW

    Ruth     1384     130.1     1467     122.7     131.1     138.5
    Williams  1132     110.0     1220     104.6     106.3     114.2
    Gehrig     979      90.0      1107      90.2      91.7      103.0
    Hornsby   882      85.8       902      78.7      75.7       88.1
    Mantle     860      85.2       979      95.0      95.9       98.1
    Foxx      784      72.0       877      75.0      71.0       79.2
    Musial     959      94.3      943      86.3      87.4       91.2
    Ott        794      77.4       932      82.2      82.9       90.5                  
    Mays      846      84.1       984     102.6     99.9       97.9
    Aaron     924      92.6      1005      99.7     100.6      101.3
    Robinson  779      79.0       816      73.0      84.2       82.1

    The problem I have with this rendering of the Big Eleven is that these six stats are cumulative.
    To illustrate my objection: Foxx and Ott have nearly the same number of Batting Runs, 784 and 794, with Ott holding a slight edge. But Ott accumulated that superior figure in 11347 plate appearances, while Foxx generated almost as many in just 9677 PAs.

    So, direct from my callused fingertips and smoking calculator, here is a revised version of the six stats, in which each raw figure is divided by the number of plate appearances of the player who generated it:

                BR       BW      RE24     WPA     WPA/LI    REW

    Ruth     .1302     .0122     .1380     .0115     .0122     .0130
    Williams  .1156     .0112      .1246     .0107     .0108     .0117
    Gehrig    .1013     .0093     .1145     .0093     .0095     .0106
    Hornsby  .0930     .0090     .0951     .0083     .0080     .0093
    Mantle    .0868     .0086     .0988     .0096     .0097     .0099
    Foxx     .0810     .0074     .0906     .0078     .0073     .0080
    Musial    .0754     .0074     .0741     .0068     .0069     .0072
    Ott       .0700     .0068     .0821     .0072     .0073     .0080
    Mays     .0704     .0070     .0819      .0085     .0083     .0081
    Aaron    .0663     .0066     .0721      .0072     .0072     .0073
    Robinson .0663     .0067     .0695      .0062     .0072     .0070

    Here are the four 1950s-60s contemporaries isolated, adding a column for batting WAR/ PA:

               BR       BW      RE24     WPA     WPA/LI    REW      bWAR

    Mantle    .0868     .0086     .0988     .0096     .0097     .0099     .0117

    Mays     .0704     .0070     .0819      .0085     .0083     .0081     .0109
    Aaron    .0663     .0066     .0721      .0072     .0072     .0073     .0095
    Robinson .0663     .0067     .0695      .0062     .0072     .0070     .0091

    Narrowed down to Mantle and Mays, here are a few more Arcane stats for comparison:

              rOBA    RBAT+   BA/bip    ISO

    Mantle    .443      176      .318      .259
    Mays      .421      160      .295      .255

    Taken altogether, then, In terms of offensive production, Mays outdoes Aaron in the majority of categories, sometimes by a wide margin, and Robinson by wider margins.

    Versus the player to whom he was often linked, especially in the 1950s, however, it appears that Mantle wins the glory in nearly every category, usually decisively.

    A penultimate remark:

    My own impression of the way the Big Eleven fall in the data mix above puts Mays seventh overall, ahead of Ott, Musial, Aaron, and Robinson, while Mantle squeaks by Hornsby into the fourth position following the triumvirate of Ruth, Williams and Gehrig, with Foxx a steady sixth.

    Lastly, I’ve worked this up with the aim of inspiring disagreement, so don’t be shy about shying criticism my way.

    Reply ↓
    1. Paul E

      As far as the 1950’s-60’s contemporaries, they all batted between .305 and .294 – roughly a difference of 6-7 hits per season. However, Mantle took about 35-45 more walks per season in those same ~650 plate appearances and, therefore, is making fewer outs and creating more runs per 27 outs made. Despite his lack of 30-30 seasons or 40 SB seasons, Mantle creates more runs than the other guys. Which is the whole idea, right?
      But, yeah, Mays was the better fielder and base stealer (than all of them). If you need a stolen base in the late innings in a tie game, Mays is your guy.
      Just a BTW, if you took their counting stats from their best 15 consecutive seasons, you’d be splitting hairs between Mays and Aaron.
      How about that Dick Allen? Among his contemporaries, probably the superior hitter of Billy Williams and Willie Stargell, maybe even McCovey? But, no Cooperstown….

      Reply ↓
      1. Paul E

        As far as Rbat, Mantle had three seasons >/= 80. The other three guys had one season between them greater than 70 (Robinson 71 in 1966 MVP season)

        Reply ↓
    3. Doug

      Mantle does better than the others on a per PA basis, because he was a great hitter but also because of his abbreviated decline phase. And, it wasn’t much of a decline, from 177 OPS+ thru age 32 to 149 OPS+ for age 33-36 (for Mays, it was 161 and an almost identical 159).

      Mantle was done at age 36, but Mays still had over 2500 PA to go after that, with 23 WAR and 138 OPS+, so still providing value well above league average. That’s more than 20% of Mays’s career PA, so definitely a drag on his overall per PA metrics that Mantle never experienced.

      Reply ↓
      1. no statistician but

        Doug:

        I can’t agree with that reasoning, unless you are saying that, if Mantle had continued playing, he would have created a huge number of negative results. These are cumulative stats, remember. Mays, even in his decline continued to add numerically to his various stats. Example: Batting Wins: Mays’s career total was 84.1, Mantle’s 85.2. Mantle would have had to be as pathetic as Willie was in 1973 (when Mays posted -0.5 BW), starting immediately in 1969 to fall below Mays, an extremely unlikely scenario considering that he put up 10.4 BW 1966-68 while Mays produced 9.4.

        Sticking with batting runs to start, Willie’s high number for one year was 6.4 and his next highest was 6.0, then two 5.8s and a 5.7. Mickie’s peak was 9.0, followed by 8.1, 7.7, 6.9, 5.9, and 5.8.

        Batter Runs: Mays 63.3, 61.3, 61.1, 60.2. 57.7, 57.5, 56.2.
        Batter Runs Mantle: 92.1, 87.0, 81.0 69.2, 60.9, 60.3, 53.4.

        RE24: Willie 74.4, 68.0 twice,,65.4, 64.7,63.3, 63.1
        RE24: Mickie 99.7, 95.6, 93.4, 79.2, 67.9, 67.4, 65.4

        WPA: Willie 8.1, 7.9, 7.7, 7.1, 7.0, 6.5 twice, 6.2
        WPA: Mickie: 9.3. 9.0, 8.4, 8.0, 6.5, 6.3 twice, 5.5

        REW: Willie 7.2, 6.9, 6.5, 6.4, 6.3, 6.1, 5.7 twice
        REW: Mickie: 9.4, 9.3, 9.2, 7.7, 6.9, 6.5 twice, 5.8

        oWAR: Willie 9.5, 9.1, 9.0, 8,8 twice, 8.4. 8.3, 8.1, 8.0
        oWAR: Mickie 11.3, 10.6 twice, 9.2, 8.4, 7.6, 7.1, 6.7

        Another factor that weighs in Mantle’s favor, if we’re dealing in what-ifs, is that his raw numbers would be greatly increased if he had been able to play fuller seasons in 1953, 1962, 1963, 1965, and 1966. In 1963, all things being equal, he would have had 7.5 Batting Wins instead of 2.5 if he had managed 600 plate appearances.

        The same or a similar argument might be made for Willie vis-a-vis the last four months of 1952 and all of 1953, of course.

        My point here, I suppose, is that conjecture about what might have happened is insubstantial compared to what did happened. 

        What did happen shows that Mays was the better all round player and he played longer, too long. Mantle was the better hitter, and he walked away while he still had gas in the tank. A mixed metaphor.

        Reply ↓
        1. Doug

          My observation is only about career rate stats, including counting stats expressed on a per PA basis, as you had shown in your comment, and which you turned to. logically enough, to normalize the career counting stats of players with different career lengths. That type of normalization works just find on a quantitative basis, but could be extended further to also normalize by age or career trajectory (i.e. peak seasons, or best n consecutive years, or what have you), as Paul offered in his comment.

          My observation was merely to point out that comparing career rate stats may distort the qualitative perception that a reader may form from that comparison if the differences in those careers are not appreciated. I used the Mantle vs Mays comparison simply because that is what you had focused on most in your comment.

          I agree with you: Mantle was the better hitter. Just making the observation that the qualitative difference between them may not be as great as it appears from the career rate stats you showed, for the reason I tried to articulate. That’s all.

          Reply ↓
          1. Paul E

            Doug , NSB,
            If we do Willie a solid and just use his peak years (1954-1968, 9,719 PA’s) that would approximate Mantle’s career 9,910 PA’s (and, incidently, include Mantle’s decline), we get:
            2,047 RC Mantle
            1,944 RC Willie

            9.79 RC/27/Air Mantle
            8.48 RC/27/Air Willie

            802 Rbat Mantle
            707 Rbat Willie

            Based on Pythagarus and RC/27/Air, we get the Mantles going 92-70 in a 162 game season versus the Willies with neutral pitching and fielding. So, yes, Mantle is the superior hitter. Mays is closer to Aaron and Mel Ott while Mantle is closer to Trout and Hornsby.

          2. no statistician but

            Here’s a factoid that caught my attention that may or may not indicate something about Mays and Mantle later in their careers. In 1966 both players finished with a .288 batting average, but Mantle had just 393 plate appearances vs Mays’s 629. Had Mickey gone to bat as many times as Willie and performed at the same level as in the 393 PAs he did have through the additional 236, then this would be the comparative result. I’ll leave it to you to decide whose line belongs to whom.

            BA    HR      R     RBI    BR     BW     WPA    WPA/LI    RE24     REW

            .288   37      64     90    50.4    5.3       4.5      5.7       50.6       5.4 
            .288   37      99    103    37.7    3.8       7.1      5.3       57.6       5.7    

            oWAR    dWAR    WAR

            7.5       -1.9       5.8
            6.8        2.1       9.0

          3. Doug

            That was the last of Mays’s 5 straight years leading the majors in WAR, and also the last of his record 13 straight seasons with 300 TB and 145 OPS+. I mentioned in the post that this was the first of those 13 seasons that Mays did not score 100 runs; as you can see, he missed that total by only the slimmest of margins.

            Mays’s “decline” phase started after that season, though he still managed 25+ WAR over the next 5 seasons (age 36-40), a feat matched only by Bonds, Ruth, Williams and Wagner. Mays is the only player to surpass 5 WAR in both his age 39 and age 40 seasons (Bonds, Ruth, Appling and Ortiz are the only players to do so in one of those seasons).

          4. Paul E

            Like Mickey said, “If I knew I was gonna live this long, I’d have taken better care of myself”.

  4. Doug

    I guess there are no takers on the second quiz question.

    The answer is Nippy Jones.

    – Jones had just 14 PA in his 1946 debut season, yet made the Cardinals’ post-season roster and appeared in one World Series game, striking out as a pinch-hitter.
    – In his final season in 1957, Jones was purchased by the Braves in July from Sacramento of the PCL, and returned to the major leagues for the first time in 5 years. He went hitless in 3 pinch-hit appearances in the World Series, but his HBP in the 10th inning of game 4 (awarded only after Jones pointed to a scuff mark on the ball as evidence that it had hit his shoe) started a come-from-behind rally by the Braves to square the series against the Yanks.

    Another Jones, Cleon of the Mets, was awarded a HBP in similar fashion in the 1969 World Series and scored on a Donn Clendenon home run on the next pitch, starting a comeback from a 3-0 deficit in the 6th inning of the clinching game 5 against the Orioles. The umpire initially ruled that Jones had not been hit by the pitch, despite the ball caroming wildly and ending up in the Met dugout. When Jones insisted that the ball be inspected, Met manager Gil Hodges tossed back a suitably bruised ball which he admitted much later was not the same ball that had rolled into the dugout.

    Reply ↓
    1. Scary Tuna

      I found them in the search and tried posting the links without success. Here are the titles of the posts, anyway:

      Circle of Greats: 1931 Part 2 Balloting |

      COG Round 49 Results: A Mays in “Greats”/How Sweet The Sound |

      Reply ↓
  6. no statistician but

    How does Barry Bonds stack up versus Mays and Mantle? Here are comparison figures through the age 33 season, after which Bonds is, to all appearances plus by every common sense judgment, guilty of having upped his game using PEDs, making a fair comparison impossible.

                  PA       WAR     oWAR   OPS+    WAA

    Bonds       8100      98.8     78.9     164      71.4
    Mays        8051     109.1     94.8     161      78.4
    Mantle      8417     100.0    102.8     175      74.4

                 BR       BW      WPA    WPA/LI    RE24   REW

    Bonds      647.7     63.4     66.0     66.4     779.0    69.5     
    Mays       589.1     58.5     67.4     67.5     673.0    65.9
    Mantle     765.4     74.9      83.4     84.7     877.9    85.9    

    There are some surprises here. Mantle has the most PAs by 300+, which makes his advantage in nearly all categories somewhat larger than it actually was. Mays outdoes his godson handily in WAR, oWAR and WAA while the reverse is true in Batter Runs and Wins. 

    Bonds (12606) and Mays(12545) had nearly the same number of career PAs and both retired after the age 42 season, so in the nine years from 33 to 42, while batting approximately the same number of times, how did the all natural Willie fare against the artificially enhanced and preserved Barry?

    Well, in OPS+ Mays sank to 155 from 161, while Bonds skyrocketed from 164 to 182. Some reference points: Babe Ruth dropped 7 points from age 33 to age 40; Stan the Man, who also retired after his age 42 year, dropped 11. Aaron dropped just 2 in the nine years till he retired. The only player other than Bonds whom I can find who didn’t suffer a decline was Ted Williams, who retired at age 41 with the same OPS+ he had at 33.

    WAR? Mays put up an additional 47.3, actually in eight years, since his last year produced 0.0. That’s over five per year, either way you figure it, and if he’d only averaged that for his career he’d still be regarded with awe and wonder. And while Bonds leapt—or was propelled, actually— to an additional 64.6 WAR, only the most naive or uninformed reader of statistics would take that figure at face value. In fact, the opposite is the case: Bonds undercut his credibility by juicing his stats. At age 33 he was running 11+ points behind Willie, and in the end, I’m guessing, for most informed people, he’s now really running 11 plus XX points behind. There’s no way to judge how his career would have declined minus the PEDs, but it certainly wouldn’t have produced numbers that the younger, drug free Bonds never approached. Ruth, by the way, propelled only by booze and hot dogs, garnered 48.7 more WAR through age 40, Musial 31.6 through 42, Williams 39.1 through 41, Aaron 38.2 through 42.

    oWAR, same song second verse only more so. Mays hammered out an additional 41.7 points in those nine years, but Bonds walked and homered his way to 64.7, including a four year run of 44.4 that encompassed three of the top six yearly oWAR figures of all time: 12.4, 11.8, 11.5. Strangely, his best performance prior to age 36, when the streak started, was . . . 8.9. Further, there are only two other seasons in which a player aged 36 or more ran up more than 9 WAR, Ruth’s 10.7 in 1931, and Williams’ 9.5 in 1958. (Personal note: the more I look into this the more I appreciate Mays and feel disgust for Bonds. Also pity, both for what he did to himself and for the fans who were, and maybe still are, deluded by his wrongheaded attempt to game the game. The legacy he thought he was creating is all ashes and dust.) Ruth, at any rate, created an honest 48.3 from age 34 through age 40. Musial 31.7 through 42. Ted W. 42.9 through 41, Aaron 37.1 through 42.

    I’ll stop the comparing here and draw a conclusion or two: 1) I don’t think anyone should fall into the trap, although many already have, of ranking Barry Bonds above anyone but the Babe as the greatest player of all time. In Bonds’ case the figures do lie. After Ruth comes Willie and no one else, and how far down the list of greats Bonds really belongs he himself has made it impossible to say. Through age 33, before the nonsense began, he wasn’t as good as Mays or Mantle, that much is clear, and I would guess that the same could be said re Cobb, Aaron, Wagner, Musial, Hornsby, Williams, and Gehrig, although I’m not going to try to prove it. 2) I also think, in spite of Bonds’ raw data and Williams’ last season, that Mays has to be regarded as the most successful position player who lasted into his early forties, which, I realize, is only to agree with some things Doug has already documented.

    Reply ↓
    1. no statistician but

      An afterthought that someone else may already have have had:

      Not Barry’s godfather Willie, but his real father Bobby, through his age 33 season, had borderline HOF stats. For the rest of his abbreviated career, part-time stints in St. Louis and Chicago, he added 0.6 WAR to his dossier and lost 0.1 oWAR.

      “Like father, like son” is a notoriously chancy adage to apply to ballplayers’ abilities, but nevertheless . . .

      Reply ↓
      1. Paul E

        NSB,
        I am certain that with the benefit of whatever concoction the “son” utilized, the “father” would have hit another 100 homers, drove in and scored another 350-400 runs and probably made the Hall of Fame (and possibly succumbed to cancer at an earlier age?). Bobby was a tremendous, pure athlete who, IIRC, was the CA state high school long jump champion. His sister Rosie ran sprints in the 1960 Olympics-tremendous genetics (and hard work, of course).The “concoction” would have enhanced that athleticism and delayed the downside of Bobby’s career…….
        Career performances are bell curves. Typically, the earlier (19-21 y.o.) the debut, the longer their peak and the longer they seem to last on a MLB roster (38-42 years of age). These guys have a decline that has an onset much later in their careers (35-38?)…..The 22-24 year olds often start to decline around age 33 (Dick Allen, Billy Williams, Bobby Bonds). Injuries often hasten the ‘exit/retirement timeline’.Sometimes they get platooned; sometimes they get released…..

        Reply ↓
    2. Tom

      Everyone seems to assume that Bonds juicing started after the 1998 season.
      However, while playing a relatively neutral park for his first 6 years, he averaged .275/.380/3.503, 25 HR, 36 SB. His career highs were .311 ba, .456 obp, .624 slugging, 34 HRs.

      At age 28, he moved to a great pitcher’s park, particularly bad for LH hitters, and proceeded to top his prior highs: .336/.458/.677 and 46 HRs.
      From 1993 to 98, he averaged .304/.445/.617, 39 HRs, 32 Sb.

      He could have reached a physical peak, and gained better understanding of the league and its pitchers. And, he could also have gotten chemical help to move the process along.

      PEDs aren’t just used to gain strength. Runners and cyclists use PEDs for endurance, to increase stamina, for muscle repair and recovery. Dee Gordon was PED user.

      We don’t know if Bonds was already on one PED regime prior to 98, then switched to a strength and power regime after 98.

      Reply ↓
      1. no statistician but

        Tom:

        My assumption was based on the SABR bio. Your suggestion of earlier usage might work, but only if you push the start date back to his breakout year at age 25 in Pittsburgh, when his OPS+ jumped to 170 and his oWAR to 6.5. The really telling evidence seems to be the very obvious muscle weight gain after his 1998 season.

        Doesn’t matter, really, 9 years, 14 years, whatever. His career stats can’t be trusted. That he was a great player isn’t in doubt—that’s the annoying thing.

        Reply ↓
        1. Paul E

          NSB, Tom,
          It is conceivable with diet and resistance training to gain 5-8 pounds of muscle in a year. With six months of resitance training annualy, Bonds could have conceivably gone from 6’1″ 175# as a 20-21 year old to 200 pounds as a 25 year old (1990 season – MVP) and another 15 pounds heavier and stronger at the start of his SF years (1993). Then there’s an expansion (Marlins & Rockies) to further dilute pitching. And, if everybody else is on the juice and improving their offensive performance, it kind of gets synergistic and everybody is on base and pitchers are unintentionally walking guys pitching around juiced batters. And, it’s easier to hit with runners on base…..But, yeah, the bigger feet and increased hat size and absolutely NO downside after 1998 (age 34 and beyond) is pretty suspicious 🙁 Bonds would be pitched around in 3-game series and, in 13 plate appearances, see two or three pitches in the strike zone and hit them 450 feet…..

          Reply ↓
          1. no statistician but

            It’s the secret February 199 trip to Transylvania to see “Dr. F” that I find most disturbing, although that mysterious meeting with the sinister trader B. L. Zeebub might be of equal concern.

            In other words, Trump’s election deniers have nothing on you, if you think diet and resistance training are the key. How about Flintstones Vitamins?

          2. Paul E

            NSB,
            I believe he could have lifted weights and ate like a pig through 1995 and had those kind of results in weight gain and commensurate strength. After 1998? He absolutely juiced with the supposed catalyst an insane jealousy of McGwire and Sosa that bordered on Trump Derangemnt Syndrome. He and Sosa also pocketed $80,000,000 extensions. You seem to be a realist. The old Faustian bargain – Cooperstown or $80,000,000? Which are you taking?

          4. Paul E

            Between 20 and 21 I went from 147 to 170….and 198 by age 22. Six-seven meals/daily will do that 🙁

  7. Doug

    Jazz Chisholm made some history with his second multi-HR game as a Yankee. He’s the first player with a pair of such games among his first three with a new franchise. Notably, both of those efforts came against the Phillies, a familiar opponent for Chisholm coming from the NL East Marlins.

    Reply ↓
    1. Paul E

      DJ LeMahieu knocked in all 6 runs today for the Yankees. Which begs the question, “What is the ML record for most RBI driving home all that player’s team’s runs in a game?”.

      Reply ↓
      1. Doug

        That record is 9 RBI by Mike Greenwell of the Red Sox on Sep 2, 1996. Greenwell recorded 1.054 WPA and 6.68 RE24 to become one of 9 players with a 1 WPA/6 RE24 game (the first four were HOFers, the rest — not so much).

        Greenwell’s game was the first with a 5-2-4-9 box score line, a mark since matched by Ivan Rodriguez (1999-04-13) and James Loney (2006-09-28).

        Reply ↓
        1. Paul E

          Doug,
          Thanks for the quick response. Pretty bizarre that the 5-2-4-9 line hadn’t been achieved previously considering all the offense from 1920 – 1963

          Reply ↓
          1. Paul E

            ….and he did it from the 8-hole! I do recall Greenwell asking for a rewrite of the 1988 MVP award in the light of Canseco’s confessed/admitted steroid use

          2. Doug

            Just to show how unpredictable RBIs can be, Greenwell finished that 1996 season with a 12-game hitting streak that ended in the last game of the season. During the streak, he collected 20 hits, slashed .408/.431/.490, but drove in just a single run, despite a 9-3 record by his team. He went 0 for 4 in the season finale, but did pick up an RBI in a Red Sox loss to the Yankees. That would be Greenwell’s final MLB season, as he went to Japan the next year, but played only one season of just 7 games for the Hanshin Tigers.

        1. Paul E

          I know LeMahieu; who are those other guys? 🙂
          Richard,
          I don’t know if this is possible to find on stathead. In his last three plate appearances of the 1968 season, Richie Allen homered thrice off three different pitchers. Has anyone else ever hit three homers consecutively in their last three PA’s of a season? If so, has anyone ever done it off three different pitchers? If this search turns into an absolute nightmare, do not hesitate to stop but I guess you could limit the window to Sept 15th – Oct 10th? No idea over here …. 🙁
          If you get a chance, any insight is greatly appreciated.

          Reply ↓
          1. Richard Chester

            I have found 4 other players to hit 3 HR in the final game of the season but none did it in his last 3 PA. The players are Gus Zernial in 1950,Adam Lind in 2009, and Evan Longoria and Don Johnson in 2012.

          3. Paul E

            Thank you for the quick response. Dan Johnson homering three times in a game is sort of like Pat Seerey homering four times in a game. The other guys – pretty understandable and likely.

  8. Doug

    Aaron Judge homered in the 1st inning Friday night, giving him 40 HR and 101 RBI for the season. He becomes the 11th player with 40 HR and 100 RBI through the first 111 games of a season.

    Reply ↓
  9. Doug Post author

    Blake Snell’s no-hitter marked the second consecutive CG shutout by a Giant pitcher, and the first time in more than a decade that any team has posted CG shutouts in consecutive games. Here are the last such back-to-back games for each franchise (it’s been more than 40 years since the last such back-to-back for the Yankees and Guardians).

    Reply ↓
  10. Paul E

    General trivia….besides Cooperstown, what do these guys have in common:
    Aaron, Alomar, Clemente, Mathews, Mays, Frank Robinson, Vaughan, Ted Williams.

    Reply ↓
    1. Doug

      An unusual mix of players, so tough to spot anything on their player pages to tie them all together. They all batted .290 for a pennant-winning team, but that’s hardly an unusual feat.

      Vaughan seems like the outlier, with 500 fewer games than everyone else in the group.

      Reply ↓
        1. Doug

          So, something like 2/3 of career WAR from seasonal WAR totals within one standard deviation of mean seasonal WAR? I’ll let someone else figure out that one.

          Reply ↓
          1. Paul E

            Doug,
            I don’t know if this list is comprehensive and all-encompassing of the group, but how about “debut and first major league game at age 20 and that first season at age 20 is a qualified season …and Hall of Famer? As opposed to Ott, Mantle, Brooks R., (Trout, eventually), Hornsby, Foxx, Kaline, etc… who played MLB as teenagers. Sorry, for the misleading nature of the question and hint but not that complex.
            Thanks again

          2. Doug

            Pretty close to comprehensive. You missed only Cepeda and a couple of 19th century players, Mickey Welch (a pitcher) and King Kelly.

            As to the Bell curve, the 9 HoFers to do this since 1901 are matched by 10 others (8 by modern qualifying standard) to do so and not make the HoF (yet), including Vlad Jr. So, about a 50% chance of a HoF career, a pretty good predictor. The Brewers’ Jackson Chourio is on pace to join this select club this season.

  11. Doug

    Elly de la Cruz broke out of an 0 for 12 in a big way with consecutive 4-hit games, the first with 4 XBH. He becomes the 31st searchable player (second this season) with back-to-back 4-hit games, each including 2+ XBH, 2+ R and 2+ RBI. No player has had three such games consecutively, nor two such back-to-back games on multiple occasions.

    Reply ↓
  12. Doug

    I happened to be looking at Zack Greinke’s player page and, with 77 WAR, one has to believe he is a lock for the HoF. If so, he would be in a class by himself at least in one respect: Greinke posted a W-L% under .333 in 30+ decisions over his first two seasons and over his last two seasons. Only two HoF pitchers have done either: Tom Glavine for the first two seasons; and Warren Spahn for the last two seasons.

    Take away those four seasons, and Greinke’s “pretty good” .591 career W-L% jumps to a “spectacular” .665 with 102 more wins than losses.

    Reply ↓
  13. Paul E

    Don’t look now but Bobby Witt, Jr. is on pace (395) to break the ML record for total bases in a single season by a SS (A-Rod 393, 2001). I imagine he and Gunnar Henderson might give Aaron Judge a battle for AL MVP?

    Reply ↓
    1. Doug

      It’s been widely reported that Judge has become the fastest to reach 300 HR in terms of Games and AB. He’s also on pace to demolish Nelson Cruz’s record 464 career HR, currently the most for players with zero HR before their age 24 season.

      Using Bill James’ career estimation tool (Favorite Toy) and Judge’s current season total of 43 HR, Judge is estimated to reach 521 HR for his career, with an 86% chance of passing Cruz’s mark. If we pencil in 57 homers for this season (his current rate), Judge’s projected career total jumps to 570.

      Just found out that James has shut down his website. If anyone knows where an archive might be found, please pass it along.

      Reply ↓
  14. Tom

    Jason Heyward was just dfa’d by the Dodgers. He hit a HR in his last ab, on 8/20/2024. He famously hit a HR in his first AB, on 04/05/2010.

    If this is the end of the line for him, he will become only the third player in MLB history to homer in his first and in his last ab.

    Paul Gillespie hit his HRs for the Cubs: in his first ab on 9/11/1942, and on his last ab 09/29/1945.

    John Miller had just 2 MLB HRs: on 09/11/1966, in his debut ab for the Yankees; and on 09/23/1969, in his last ab, for the Dodgers.

    Reply ↓
    1. Doug

      Meanwhile, the White Sox today lost for the 100th time in their first 131 games. The 1916 Athletics are only team to get to 100 losses sooner, and by only one game.

      That Athletics team has the lowest season W-L% of the modern era, at .235 (36-117). The White Sox are currently at .237. Here is how the Sox would have to finish to beat out these underachieving clubs:
      12-19 ties 2003 Tigers (43-119)
      11-20 beats 1919 Athletics (36-104)
      10-21 beats 1962 Mets (40-120), 1904 Senators (38-113) and 1935 Braves (38-115)
      8-23 beats 1916 Athletics (36-117)

      All of the above finishes are higher winning percentages than what the Sox have done so far. Their remaining schedule features some tough opponents (see below), so catching any of the above clubs will not be easy.
      Home: DET (1), TEX (3), NYM (3), CLE (3), OAK (3), LAA (3)
      Away: BAL (3), BOS (3), LAA (3), SDP (3), DET (3)

      Reply ↓
  16. Doug

    Last week’s unlikely AL Player of the Week was Blue Jay right-hander Bowden Francis. Francis garnered the award on the strength of two winning starts, each with 7+ IP, 7+ K, zero BB, 3 hits or less, and 1 run or less. That put Francis in this select group of 7 as the only pitchers with such back-to-back games. Like Jeff Hoffman in the group, Francis recorded these starts the first two times of his career that he pitched 7 innings or more.

    For an encore, Francis took a no-hitter into the 9th inning on Saturday. He lost his walk-less streak with a trio of free passes but the other criteria are still intact, so his current streak of 3 such games puts him in this group of 9 even higher pedigree pitchers. Francis is the only pitcher in the group with that back-to-back-to-back stretch for the first three times in a career with 7+ IP.

    Reply ↓
    1. Doug

      The Bowden Francis legend grows. For a fourth consecutive game, he recorded 7+ IP, allowed 1 run or none, 3 hits or less and 3 walks or less. First pitcher to do so within a season, and these were the first four times he had recorded 7+ IP. Here’s the list.

      Reply ↓
      1. Doug

        Francis’s record streak ended at 4 games, after a 5 IP outing against the Phils, allowing 2 runs on 3 hits.

        Today (9-11) against the Mets, Francis again took a no-hitter into the 9th, before surrendering a home run ball. Francis has now allowed just 10 hits over his last 6 outings, destroying the previous record low of 13 hits over 6 starts and 40+ IP within a season, jointly held by Blake Snell, Johan Santana and Bob Feller.

        Reply ↓
  17. Paul E

    Astros beat the brakes off the Phillies today slugging 18 hits while the Phillies were no-hit through 7 full innings. Austin Hays led off the 8th with a single as the hometowners managed three singles on the afternoon in a shutout loss.
    Which begs the question, “What winning team in a no-hitter amassed the most hits?”. I thought I saw a few 13-hit games in a very unscientific search based on most runs scored by the winners…..

    Reply ↓
    1. Scary Tuna

      The highest total I have found so far is the 18 hits by the Angels while Reid Detmers no-hit the Rays in 12-0 victory on 5/10/22.

      Reply ↓
    2. Scary Tuna

      Also 18 hits by the Cubs in a 16-0 win on 04/21/16, with Jake Arietta no-hitting the Reds. I have checked all the games in which the winning team scored double digit runs, except a few high scoring 19th century games lacking box scores.

      Reply ↓
      1. Paul E

        Tuna,
        Thank you for the quick response. Interestingly, the Astros managed 18 today. Tough to top 18 hits, I imagine.

        Reply ↓
      2. Doug

        Checking those double-digit run no-hit games, I came across this game, Chick Fraser’s no-hit win for the Phillies by a 10-0 score over the Cubs on Sep 18, 1903. That game is notable for a couple of reasons. The Phillies committed four errors in the game, the most behind a pitcher throwing a no-hitter. It was also the second game of a double-header, the first a home game for the Phillies and the second a home game for Chicago.

        The latter circumstance arose when a grandstand at the Baker Bowl collapsed in August. The A’s were also playing at home at the time, so the Phillies went 12 days between games, waiting for Columbia Park (the A’s home field) to become available. To make up the missing games, the Phillies played 17 double-headers over the final 38 days of the season, including 6 double-dips in 6 days (Sep 17-22), a span including Fraser’s no-hit game, and also the four “home” games the Phillies played in their opponent’s home park.

        Reply ↓
    3. Tom

      On the opposite side, Jack Chesbro tossed a 15 hit shutout for the Pirates on 07/10/1901. He pitched 12 innings to beat Boston and Bill Dineen 1-0. This was in a midst of a 6 game streak where Chesbro allowed 67 hits, a .313 BA, yet went 4-1, 2.89.

      The 9 inning record is 14 hits, by Milt Gaston, on 07/10/1928. The Nationals got 13 hits in their 9-0 win.

      Reply ↓
          1. Doug Post author

            In that Dodger/Expo game, Mike Fitzgerald caught all 22 innings. A catcher has caught a complete game of 20+ innings 47 times, most recently by Rob Brantly and John Buck in the Marlins’ 2-1 win over the Mets on 2013-06-08.
            -Paul Casanova caught 3 such games for the expansion Senators, while Bob Boone and Tom Haller each caught two
            -Ossee Schrecongost (1905) and Dick Billings (1971) caught such a game in the 2nd of a twinbill, after also catching the 1st game
            -Carlton Fisk caught the longest such game in 1984, at 25 innings (although, I believe that game was played over two days).
            -Yogi Berra is the oldest catcher to do this, at age 37 in 1962

      3. Doug Post author

        15 hits is the most recorded by a team without scoring, by those Braves, the 1913 Red Sox and the 1918 Braves (the last also against the Pirates). Most in a 9-inning game is 14, by the 1913 Giants and 1928 Indians. Here’s the list.

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  18. Paul E

    Again, off the beaten path…Lawrence Butler has yet to compile 500 plate appearances but has still managed two 3-homer games. Has this ever been accomplished in fewer career plate appearances?

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    1. Doug Post author

      Actually, the last three players to do this did so in fewer than 500 PA. Here’s the list, sorted by season PA. Sosa in 2001 is the only player with 3 such games in a season.
      209 – Adam Duvall (2020)
      458 – Aaron Judge (2023)
      485 – Jesse Winker (2021)
      521 – Nelson Cruz (2019)
      547 – Ted Williams (1957)
      589 – Dave Kingman (1979)
      606 – Aramis Ramirez (2004)
      606 – Willie Stargell (1971)
      609 – Johnny Mize (1938)
      614 – Mookie Betts (2018)
      615 – Steve Finley (1997)
      634 – Albert Pujols (2006)
      643 – Geronimo Berroa (1996)
      651 – Jeromy Burnitz (2001)
      655 – Doug DeCinces (1982)
      659 – Willie Mays (1961)
      664 – Barry Bonds (2001)
      666 – Ralph Kiner (1947)
      666 – Johnny Mize (1940)
      673 – Cecil Fielder (1990)
      681 – Mark McGwire (1998)
      704 – Carlos Delgado (2001)
      705 – Joe Carter (1989)
      711 – Sammy Sosa (2001)
      729 – Jeff Bagwell (1999)
      730 – Mookie Betts (2016)

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      1. Paul E

        Sorry, my fault – I should have stated, “two 3-homer games in less than his first 500 career plate appearances”.

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        1. Doug

          Looks like the only other player to do that was Dusty Rhodes. His second 3-HR game came in 1954 in his 184th career game, but he had compiled only 433 PA in those games. Famous for his 1954 WS pinch-hitting exploits (3 for 3 with 6 RBI, incl. game 1 WOHR), Rhodes was actually a bit of a dud as a pinch-hitter for his regular season career, with a .577 OPS in that role that comprised almost half of his career games. Conversely, he was a offensive force when he started games, with an .841 OPS.

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          1. Paul E

            Thanks, Doug. Butler looked like Willie McCovey when watching that Phillies’ blowout on July 14th. In his last 12 games he’s slashing .420/.445/.940 with seven homers and a mere two strikeouts. Hopefully, the A’s retain him or get a boatload of talent for him in a trade

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