5 Year WAR Leaders – Infielders 1961-2011
Birtelcom’s recent post on dynastic succession by teams got me to thinking about succession in terms of players. In particular, does the best player at a position remain the best player for an extended period, or does that honor tend to shift around among the better players during any particular time?
To answer this question, I looked at cumulative bWAR measured over 5 year periods, for every such period since 1961. Since I was focusing on individual positions, I set a high threshold of at least 75% of games played at that position during the period. This approach will exclude players who split time among positions, or around the time of a mid-career position switch. But, I believe those are precisely the reasons why this approach is preferable when evaluating players by position.
In his Baseball Abstracts, Bill James talked about the considerations that went into his HOF Standards and HOF Monitor scores. I don’t recall exactly how he expressed it, but one of things James looked at was whether a player was recognized as the best at his position at the player’s peak, and also how long that peak was. I’m not going to delve into the subjective argument of how a player was recognized or regarded. Instead, the table below is one way to represent whether a player was the best at his position, whether recognized as such or not.
So, here’s the table. Scroll through to see the top MLB player by bWAR on a year-by-year. Again, the player identified is the one accumulating the most bWAR in the 5 year period ending with the indicated year. Also, you can type a player’s name, or a year, in the Search bar to bring up that specific information.
| 5 Years Ending | 1B | 2B | 3B | SS |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1961 | Bill Skowron | Nellie Fox | Eddie Mathews | Ernie Banks |
| 1962 | Orlando Cepeda | Nellie Fox | Eddie Mathews | Ernie Banks |
| 1963 | Norm Cash | Nellie Fox | Eddie Mathews | Dick Groat |
| 1964 | Norm Cash | Bill Mazeroski | Eddie Mathews | Dick Groat |
| 1965 | Norm Cash | Bill Mazeroski | Eddie Mathews | Maury Wills |
| 1966 | Bill White | Bill Mazeroski | Ron Santo | Jim Fregosi |
| 1967 | Bill White | Pete Rose | Ron Santo | Jim Fregosi |
| 1968 | Willie McCovey | Joe Morgan | Ron Santo | Jim Fregosi |
| 1969 | Willie McCovey | Joe Morgan | Ron Santo | Jim Fregosi |
| 1970 | Willie McCovey | Dick McAuliffe | Ron Santo | Jim Fregosi |
| 1971 | Willie McCovey | Joe Morgan | Ron Santo | Rico Petrocelli |
| 1972 | Willie McCovey | Joe Morgan | Sal Bando | Bert Campaneris |
| 1973 | Willie McCovey | Joe Morgan | Sal Bando | Bert Campaneris |
| 1974 | George Scott | Joe Morgan | Sal Bando | Bert Campaneris |
| 1975 | Tony Perez | Joe Morgan | Sal Bando | Bert Campaneris |
| 1976 | George Scott | Joe Morgan | Mike Schmidt | Bert Campaneris |
| 1977 | Steve Garvey | Joe Morgan | Mike Schmidt | Bert Campaneris |
| 1978 | Steve Garvey | Joe Morgan | Mike Schmidt | Dave Concepcion |
| 1979 | Rod Carew | Joe Morgan | Mike Schmidt | Dave Concepcion |
| 1980 | Rod Carew | Willie Randolph | Mike Schmidt | Robin Yount |
| 1981 | Keith Hernandez | Willie Randolph | Mike Schmidt | Robin Yount |
| 1982 | Keith Hernandez | Bobby Grich | Mike Schmidt | Robin Yount |
| 1983 | Keith Hernandez | Bobby Grich | Mike Schmidt | Robin Yount |
| 1984 | Keith Hernandez | Lou Whitaker | Mike Schmidt | Robin Yount |
| 1985 | Eddie Murray | Lou Whitaker | Mike Schmidt | Cal Ripken |
| 1986 | Eddie Murray | Lou Whitaker | Wade Boggs | Cal Ripken |
| 1987 | Eddie Murray | Lou Whitaker | Wade Boggs | Cal Ripken |
| 1988 | Don Matttingly | Ryne Sandberg | Wade Boggs | Cal Ripken |
| 1989 | Don Matttingly | Ryne Sandberg | Wade Boggs | Ozzie Smith |
| 1990 | Will Clark | Ryne Sandberg | Wade Boggs | Alan Trammell |
| 1991 | Will Clark | Ryne Sandberg | Wade Boggs | Cal Ripken |
| 1992 | Will Clark | Ryne Sandberg | Wade Boggs | Cal Ripken |
| 1993 | Frank Thomas | Ryne Sandberg | Wade Boggs | Cal Ripken |
| 1994 | Frank Thomas | Ryne Sandberg | Robin Ventura | Cal Ripken |
| 1995 | Frank Thomas | Craig Biggio | Robin Ventura | Cal Ripken |
| 1996 | Jeff Bagwell | Chuck Knoblauch | Robin Ventura | Barry Larkin |
| 1997 | Jeff Bagwell | Craig Biggio | Matt Williams | John Valentin |
| 1998 | Jeff Bagwell | Craig Biggio | Ken Caminiti | Barry Larkin |
| 1999 | Jeff Bagwell | Craig Biggio | Chipper Jones | Barry Larkin |
| 2000 | Jeff Bagwell | Craig Biggio | Chipper Jones | Alex Rodriguez |
| 2001 | Jeff Bagwell | Roberto Alomar | Chipper Jones | Alex Rodriguez |
| 2002 | Jason Giambi | Jeff Kent | Chipper Jones | Alex Rodriguez |
| 2003 | Todd Helton | Jeff Kent | Scott Rolen | Alex Rodriguez |
| 2004 | Todd Helton | Jeff Kent | Scott Rolen | Alex Rodriguez |
| 2005 | Todd Helton | Jeff Kent | Scott Rolen | Miguel Tejada |
| 2006 | Todd Helton | Jeff Kent | Scott Rolen | Miguel Tejada |
| 2007 | Albert Pujols | Chase Utley | Alex Rodriguez | Derek Jeter |
| 2008 | Albert Pujols | Chase Utley | Alex Rodriguez | Derek Jeter |
| 2009 | Albert Pujols | Chase Utley | Alex Rodriguez | Derek Jeter |
| 2010 | Albert Pujols | Chase Utley | Alex Rodriguez | Hanley Ramirez |
| 2011 | Albert Pujols | Chase Utley | Alex Rodriguez | Hanley Ramirez |
You can see that dynasties exist for players as well as teams. Sometimes, there are transition periods between the emergence of truly dominant players at a position but, in most cases, players tend to hold their crown for a few years at least, and often more, sometimes a lot more.
So, what do you think? Any surprises? Does this feed fuel to the fire for any HOF arguments?
I will follow up this post with one on outfielders and another on pitchers and catchers. If I’m feeling energetic, I’ll also take a look at 1901-1960.
Subscribe to: RSS feed
The 2nd most dominant SS of the last 50 years (after Ripken)…
Dagoberto Campaneris.
Did so while averaging 4.1 between 1968-1977.
45.3 career WAR
SS on 3 (consecutive) WS winners.
SB leader 6 out of 8 years.
14th all-time.
2249 hits in a low-offense era.
40 SH in 1977 the most since 1929.
Played all nine positions in one game.
Threw a bat at Lerrin Lagrow during a playoff game, and Billy Martin attacked him in the ensuing brawl. Eleven years later Billy plucked him out of the Mexican league to come back at age 41. He batted .322
HOF consideration?
On the ballot once. 3.1%
While browsing through Campaneris’ home page I saw that he led the AL in SH with 25 while participating in only 98 games. I wonder if anyone has led the leaugue in a counting stat in fewer games.
Babe Ruth led the league in HRs (11) in 1918 in only 95 games.
We have a problem with this type of question because in 1918 they ended the season early for WWI. They played about 126 games. Also, for 1901 and later shortened seasons in 1919, 1972, 1981, 1994, 1995. Plus the lengthened the season with expansion in 1961-62.
Very good point.
The answer, then, has to be a %
Deion Sanders is close:
1992, leading with 14 3Bs in 97 games, 325 PAs
I have the feeling that triples is one category that you can lead the league while playing much less than a full season.
When Chief Wilson hit his record 36 triples in 1912 the second-place finishers (Wagner and Murray) had 20 each. Wilson hit triple #21 in his 77th game so if he stopped playing then and there he still would have led the league.
I think Campy’s biggest problem is his lack of superior defense. No Gold Gloves(not suggesting that’s the be-all end-all of metrics there) but to me he’s pretty similar to Luis Aparicio and Ozzie Smith, minus the 21 Gold Gloves between Luis and Ozzie. All three had great career SB numbers, and Aparicio and Smith led the league in SH twice also. Campy’s postseason prowess gives him a nose up over Aparicio at least, but to me not enough to make up for the defensive discrepancy between the three.
Smith 87 OPS+, 580 SB, 21.6 dWAR, 12 GG
Aparicio 82 OPS+, 506 SB, 11.5 dWAR, 9 GG
Campy 89 OPS+, 646 SB, 4.1 dWAR, 0 GG
My first impression was also Campy.
He is the only player on the list
for at least five consecutive seasons
who is not in the HOF.
By this metric he was the best SS in
the AL for ten seasons. By that point
alone it seems his HOF candidacy was
badly flawed.
Fregosi also, preceeding Campy, separated by Petrocelli.
Bill Skowron??? Really? Looks like he had a whopping 13.5 WAR during the period in question. Hard to believe that no first baseman could do better than that.
Ray Boone
Dick Gernert
Gail Harris
Bob Boyd
Vic (No) Power
Norm Zauchin
George Crowe
Dale Long
Frank Torre
Ed Bouchee
(an old) Gil Hodges
14.2 WAR from Stan the Man
16.2 from Baby Bull
Was Cepeda not at 1B enough to make the list?
It may not be that outlandish. It’s the last year before expansion, and my memory is that a lot of teams used 1B as a rotational spot where catchers and outfielders would also play. McCovey didn’t start until 1959, Norm Cash wasn’t a regular until 1960.
Cepeda was primarily in LF in 1960 so I assume Doug didn’t count that year in his totals. Same thing for Musial. He was primarily in the outfield in ’60 and ’61.
BTW, many of Pujols’ two year totals beat Skowron’s 5 year total.
Skowron averaged 2.7 WAR for those 5 years.
The 2B in that period, Nellie Fox, averaged 4.2 – and that’s while posting a NEGATIVE WAR in 1961.
The SS, Banks, averaged 7.8
___
So, no, not a glory period for first sackers.
___
Skowron played only 74 games in ’59 due to a back injury, which finally gave Marv Throneberry a chance to play his natural(-ly bad) position.
Marvelous debuted in ’55 with one amazing game and a 473 ops+. Then spent the next two years absolutely mashing in the Denver air (82 hr 269rbi).
He wasn’t so Marv in the big city, though, and was sent after ’59 to the Yankees minor league affiliate, the Kansas City Athletics, in a package for Roger Maris.
Marv went on to share first base duties with Ed Bouchee for the 2nd worst team of all time (1899 Spiders).
The Mets lost the last 22 games that Bouchee appeared in.
Throneberry led the league in errors and ended his career with a -0.6 WAR.
Which was better than his brother Faye’s -3.6
All that losing must have been educational, though, because Three of the ’62 Mets went on to become managers:
Gil Hodges, Roger Craig, and Don Zimmer.
’62 Mets trivia tidbit: one one pitcher finished the season with an era+ over 100
Galen Cisco, with a 129 in 19.1 innings.
I might be mistaken on this, but I believe it took Dave Duncan passing him last year for Galen Cisco to lose the title of “most seasons as pitching coach”. He coached five different teams, including the World Champ ’92-’93 Jays. This was just a blurb I heard last year, so I’m not 100% sure it’s reliable.
Just out of curiosity, I decided to look at how many 1st baseman had 4.0 WAR seasons by decade. The first number is the number of first basemen with WAR greater than 4.0. The number in parentheses is the number of players with over 100 games played with at least 75% at first base. The third number is simply the percentage.
1901-1909: 20 (113) 17.7%
1910-1919: 16 (142) 11.3%
1920-1929: 29 (150) 19.3%
1930-1939: 52 (146) 35.6%
1940-1949: 29 (134) 21.6%
1950-1959: 19 (132) 14.4%
1960-1969: 30 (182) 16.5%
1970-1979: 35 (194) 18.0%
1980-1989: 44 (199) 22.1%
1990-1999: 58 (222) 26.1%
2000-2009: 53 (235) 22.6%
A few comments:
1) WOW the 1930s.
2) While the 50s were definitely a nadir in terms of first basemen, the 60s and 70s weren’t much better and are probably mostly a reflection in the change from the 154 to the 162 game schedule.
Here’s the 1957-61 cumulative 1B WAR based on the 75% playing time criterion. Pretty close.
1. Bill Skowron, 13.5
2. Norm Cash, 13.2
3. Joe Adcock, 13
4. Jim Gentile, 10.3
5. Vic Power, 9.5
Skowron was platooned a lot, cutting his counting numbers, including WAR, but helping his rate stats. Cash was just getting started, didn’t have near 5 full years. Adcock was well past his peak. Power was a great defensive player at 1st, but not much of a hitter for the position. Gentile played very little in ’57-’58 and none in ’59. Cepeda and McCovey when both were with the Giants required one to play the outfield.
The guy who really caught my eye was Jeff Bagwell at 1B. I knew he was good, but didn’t think he was that good.
But the numbers don’t lie. Had 1.006 OPS for seven years (1993-1999), playing in the Astrodome. Wow !
That was my same first response to these tables, which are extremely eye-friendly, Doug. Great job. It makes Bagwell’s exclusion from the HOF last year even more of a joke.
The dome did not bother Bagwell.
In fact, his career splits have him:
.919 ops on the Road
.995 at Enron Field
.966 at the Astrodome
The first thing that popped out at me was “why didn’t Campaneris get more serious HoF consideration?” I mostly remember him for that HR he hit in game seven of the 73 WS…forgot what a good player he actually was.
Kinda suprised not to see George Brett at all on here, but he had the misfortune of playing at the same time as Mike Schmidt.
How did Dick McAulife manage to break into Joe Morgan’s streak?
Jim Fregosi!
A-Rod: Five years each at two positions–wow.
1) Campaneris was hurt by playing in a pitcher’s park in a pitcher’s era.
2) Brett’s problem was injuries. On a per game basis, he definitely beat Schmidt from 76-80.
Average WAR from ’76 – ’80
7.8 Brett
8.2 Schmidt
Per 162 games:
8.7 Brett
8.5 Schmidt
___
Schmidt posted a 5+ WAR 14 years in a row.
6+ WAR eleven years in a row.
Schmidt’s best peak 5 was actually 1974 – 1979, where he averaged an 8.4 WAR
His successor, Wade Boggs, tallied an 8.6 from ’85 – ’89
(though somehow his 162 game avg is 8.3 ???)
Wade cracked 8 all five years:
8.5
8.6
9.1
8.7
8.2
Five years with a WAR of eight or higher is pretty rare. I’m not great with these kind of searches, but as far as I can tell only eight players besides Boggs have done this:
Babe Ruth 7 years 1926-1932
Willie Mays 7 years 1960-1966
Albert Pujols 7 years 2003-2009
Honus Wagner 6 years 1904-1909
Hank Aaron 5 years 1959-1963
Cy Young 5 years 1892-1896
Joe Morgan 5 years 1972-1976
Ted Williams kind of did it too. 1941-1942. Then he was in the military for three years, then did it for four more years from 1946-1949.
My first thought was, “What about Lou Gehrig”? Sure enough, if you make it 7.5 WAR or better, the Iron Horse did it eleven straight years(’27-’37).
McAuliffe hit a pretty fair amount of homers in the 60s for a second baseman. Looks like he was the Dan Uggla of that decade.
McAuliffe also averaged 101 BB per 162 G in that span, and just 3 GDP/162 G.
Another Tiger for the Hall of Very Good.
Didn’t McAuliffe first come up as a shortstop?
Not just that, he played shortstop for the Tigers ’til 66 and then transitioned to 2B after that. Over a third of his games are at shortstop. Not that anyone takes much stock in these, but his first B-ref comp is…..Jim Fregosi, who is discussed further down the thread.
McAuliffe showed up recently on a query I did to determine how historically elite Dan Uggla’s career HR total was at age 31:
HR for 2B by age 31:
1. Soriano* 241
2. Hornsby 217
3. Sandberg 205
4. D Uggla 190
5. B Doerr 183
6. C Utley 177
7. McAuliffe 172
8. Jf Kent 161
9. J Gordon 153
10. R Alomar 151
*Though at age 31 Soriano had still played more than 50% of his games at 2B, as of this year he will no longer qualify as a 2B as his time in the outfield is now more than 50%.
Why is Fregosi on the outside, while Aparicio is in?
During his best 8-year period (1963-70), Fregosi had 43 WAR. During Aparicio’s best 8-year period (1959-66), he had just 26.8 WAR. On the other hand, their career marks (both over 18 years) are Fregosi 46.1 and Aparicio 49.9.
Therein may lie the answer, Fregosi had the better peak, but basically only contributed in a significant way during that peak. Voters would probably better remember the 8 years of indifferent play after his peak, rathen than the peak itself.
I think that Fregosi’s name also comes up too often as the wrong side of the answer to the question “What was the worst trade ever made?” for him to get into the HoF.
Aparicio has 9 GG, Fregosi 1. Fregosi has negative dWAR for his career. That may not mean as much to you and me, but great defense was almost a prerequisite to make the Hall of Fame as a shortstop in those days.
Doug, Aparicio did a lot more things that got his name out there.
Won a ROY.
Came 2nd in MVP when his team went to the WS.
Led the league in steals his first nine years in the league.
But, really, Luis got in on the strength and reputation of his defense. Forget the new fancy metrics – the old counting stats back up his rep:
Games at SS:
1st, five years in a row
Putouts at SS:
Top 3, 10 times
Assists at SS
1st, six years in a row (7 overall)
Fielding % at SS
1st, five years in a row
6 overall
top 3 thirteen times
9 Gold Gloves
Aparicio was very overrated in his time as an offensive player, they were too impressed by his stolen bases and paid insufficient attention to his few walks and no power. It was thought that he was a good lead-off hitter. He wasn’t.
Fregosi may have suffered from the perception that SS don’t hit HR, especially then, so they were ignored. He certainly suffered by playing in a low scoring era.
@29
“…perception that SS don’t hit HR, especially then, so they were ignored.
I dunno. That doesn’t make a lot of sense standing on its own. Factor in the five 40-homer seasons that Banks had right before Fregosi entered the league, and that Fregosi only averaged 13 HR per 162, I dunno…
Bstar, depends on which fielding metric you’re using. On FanGraphs he rates positive on defense, and taking it one step further, most of the negative defensive ratings comes from 1B and 3B. As a SS, he rated very highly.
Very underrated player who, as noted, seems to be remembered now for something he had no control over. Being traded for Nolan Ryan!
Actually, Mike, the D numbers are identical since fangraphs uses TZ, just like B-ref, for anyone pre-2002. I should have looked at Rfield, which does have Fregosi +3 runs for his career. FWIW, the gap between Aparicio and Fregosi is actually greater on fangraphs(~10) than it is on B-ref(~4).
I love the way fangraphs lets you compare WAR totals of all shortstops with a click of a button. Very useful.
I think the point I was trying to make was SS he rated quite strong with the Angels. With both the bat and the glove, he was a major contributor during the 1960s while with the Angles. I wasn’t trying to put him ahead of Aparicio and I’m not advocating him for the HOF!
I don’t think it’s that hard to understand. Aparicio was a regular all 18 years of his career. In fact he accumulated more than 112 base hits all 18 years of his career (wonder how many other players can claim that???). Fregosi on the other hand, stopped being a regular in his late 20s. His last season with more than 100 hits was at age 28. That won’t get you into the HOF. Also, Aparicio was helped by playing for two WS teams, one which one. Fregosi never played in the playoffs.
(btw, I’m not endorsing Aparicio for the HOF, just saying it’s not hard to see why HOF voters valued Aparicio over Fregosi)
I agree, Ed.
I guess I wasn’t clear enough, but my question was intended to be mostly rhetorical. Normally, you would think a guy who is the WAR leader at a high-value defensive position for an extended period would have a serious HOF case. But, clearly, that is not the case here, as I indicated in comment 17, when I talked about Fregosi’s lack of production in the second half of his career.
The underlying question is how does a shortstop who accumulates 43 WAR in 8 years suddenly fall off a cliff. Not at age 33 or 34, but at 29. Fregosi accumulated just 2.6 WAR in his last 8 seasons, less than the worst year of his previous 8 seasons. If you think I exaggerate about the cliff, look at the numbers below.
- WAR age 21-28: 4.1, 8.1, 4.5, 5.2, 5.0, 3.2, 5.2, 7.7
- WAR age 29-36: 0.6, 0.1, 0.2, 0.5, 0.5, 0.0, 0.7, 0.0
Incidentally, that 0.6 at age 29 was his last year in California. So, it wasn’t the trade the precipitated the decline.
The reason McAulife broke Morgan’s streak is because Morgan missed almost the entire 1968 season due to injury (only 27 PAs). Actually the fact that Morgan is the leader for the 64-68 period is pretty amazing since he also barely played in 1964 (43 PAs). He also missed 5 games in ’65, 40 in ’66 and 29 in ’67. His 432 games for the 5 year period is likely the lowest (by far) for any of Doug’s leaders.
Here are the 1964-68 bWAR leaders at 2B.
1. Joe Morgan, 14.2
2. Bill Mazeroski, 10.9
3. Ron Hunt, 10.7
4. Bobby Knoop, 10.2
5. Glenn Beckert, 6.4
McAuliffe had 22.9 bWAR in this period, but split his time between SS and 2B.
Several people had the title, lost it for a year and then regained it, but it looks like Ripken is the only one to lose it for two years only to regain later.
I think that actually speaks to the incredible concentration of talent at that position during those years- that mid-career a player that virtually everyone ranks as one of the best ever at his position would be unseated by 2 different players
The other Hot Cornerers who have come anywhere close:
6.8 Alex Rodriguez ’04 -’08
7.4 Eddie Mathews ’59 – ’63
7.9 Ron Santo ’63 – ’67
I was surprised to see Grich make it on two years in the 80′s. I think of his dominant period–and his stats back up my memory–as being in the 70′s. I guess the competition just got weaker in the 80′s. Joe Morgan finally got old.
Grich’s best offensive year was 1981, with a league-leading 164 OPS+. He tied for the lead in HR that year, too.
Grich was one of those second basemen who hit more HRs as his career progressed. Other good second baggers to see a similar trend:
Jeff Kent
Craig Biggio
Joe Morgan
Lou Whitaker
Frank White
It’s true that Grich had some of his best power and OPS+ years in the last half of his career, but in terms of WAR, his best years were:
1973: 7.3
1974: 6.7
1975: 6.7
Followed by 79,81,72,76,83,80,78…he was pretty solid for a long time.
Another thing that struck me was Todd Helton’s nice run in the early 2000s. Would he have made the list once if he’d been playing in San Diego or Montreal? His career road numbers say “no way”.
Helton’s numbers really illustrate both the Coors effect, and also the Offensive era he played in.
From 2000 – 2004
.349 .450 .643 1.093 160+
Sick, sick numbers.
When Rogers Hornsby posted similar numbers in 1921 his WAR was 11.7
Helton’s average?
7.3 WAR
and that is with 1.1 dWAR
Using Bill James’s Historical Baseball Almanac player rankings, which covers thru 1999 or 2000, it appears that third base comes out the best. I’m going to take a stab at trying to show his ranking by position from ’61 to ’00.
1b 2b 3b ss
61 75 15 03 05
62 17 15 03 05
63 20 15 03 30
64 20 29 03 30
65 20 29 03 19
66 39 29 06 15
67 39 05 06 15
68 09 01 06 15
69 09 01 06 15
70 09 22 06 15
71 09 01 06 32
72 09 01 11 25
73 09 01 11 25
74 57 01 11 25
75 13 01 11 25
76 57 01 01 25
77 31 01 01 25
78 31 01 01 26
79 09 01 01 26
80 09 17 01 04
81 16 17 01 04
82 16 12 01 04
83 16 12 01 04
84 16 13 01 04
85 05 13 01 03
86 05 13 04 03
87 05 13 04 03
88 12 07 04 03
89 12 07 04 07
90 14 07 04 09
91 14 07 04 03
92 14 07 04 03
93 10 07 04 03
94 10 07 22 03
95 10 05 22 03
96 04 21 22 06
97 04 05 23 **
98 04 05 25 06
99 04 05 28 06
00 04 05 28 17
A few thoughts:
James ranks Pete Rose for his career as a right fielder (#5 @ 2B in 67) and Rod Carew as a second baseman (#9 @ 1B in ’79 & ’80. In 2000 he has Chipper Jones ranked as the 28th best third baseman & ARod and the 17th best shortstop- I would guess they now rank a bit higher. Finally he doesn’t rank John Valentin which I assume is an oversight and not intentional since he ranks many other players in mid-career. I would guess that based on the criteria James was using he belonged somewhere between 30 & 50.
I don’t know how much this adds to the discussion but it was the first thing that I thought of when I saw the list that Doug had created.
Hey, does anyone know why–in the view I’m looking at, which is currently my home computer, not a mobile device–some posts don’t have reply buttons? I was going to reply to post #31, but I don’t see a reply button.
When the replies are nested too deeply you are not given the opportunity to reply. Yet another reason to prefer linear ordered comments.
One nice thing about using my mobile device to read these posts on HHS is that it doesn’t show them nested. Unfortunately, it also doesn’t show them as numbered, so it’s hard to reference specific posts.
I preferred things the way they were before, all in a big long list, like the way the blog was on bbref.com. But that’s just me. I don’t care for change much. If it were up to me, I’d get rid of interleague play first, then wildcards, then the DH. I’d have AL umps bring back those mammoth chest protectors they used to wear…I may be persuaded to keep divisions. Not sure about that one yet.
I agree with you about the big long list, interleague play and wildcards.
I wonder how much these things are influenced by our childhood memories of baseball. I grew up in the mid 70s so the DH doesn’t bother me. But interleague play and wildcards = the work of the devil!!!
I agree about wildcards; I’m OK with interleague play, except for this year. For some reason, the Braves get to play the Yankees TWICE while the Phillies instead get the Twins and no Yankees at all. Thanks for the imbalance, Bud.
The best you can do is reply to your #12, which will put your next comment under my #31. I think it does this mainly because there just isn’t enough space left in the right-hand margin to cover another indentation. So it will show up as a reply to your #12 but by the body of your post it will be obvious what you are replying to anyway.
^^OOPS. Ironically, a reply fail by me. 40 should have been a reply to 39.
2nd straight reply fail. 40 replying to 33. Geez.
Here’s the leaderboard for Doug’s tables of 5-year WAR leader seasons:
1. Morgan 11
2. Schmidt 10
2. A-Rod 10
4. Ripken 9
5. Boggs 8
6. Sandberg 7
7. Santo 6
7. Campy 6
7. Bagwell 6
A-Rod would have 12 in a row, but the rules we’re using require that we not count the 5 year periods ending in 2005 and 2006 because he split the periods between SS and 3B 3 years to 2. (and then 2 years to 3.) So, he loses 2 periods where he had 2 MVP’s! Has any other player won MVP’s at 2 different positions that were important fielding positions? (3B and “up the middle.”) How many have won MVP’s at any 2 different positions? Or had MVP level seasons, say 7+ WAR at different positions?
1982 Robin Yount SS
1989 Robin Yount CF
Yount’s 1989 season was a curious MVP selection. His only black ink was oWAR. But he had -1.2 dWAR, so was only 5th in overall WAR. Yount was 3rd in OPS, 2nd in TB, 3rd in Runs and RBI. So he did have a good season, but for only a .500 team.
McGriff, on the other hand, led the Blue Jays to a division flag and had black ink in OPS and HR, 2nd in SLG, 3rd in WAR and oWAR. Yet, Crime Dog could manage no better than 6th in MVP voting.
I think the narrative that year (before my time, though it was, since I was only 2 during that season) had to do with Yount switching positions a couple of years before. He was third in OPS from a demanding position, one of only 2 100 R/100 RBI guys that year, and Milwaukee wasn’t terrible. He hit .300 and pounded 20 HR from CF, which used to be uncommon (and may become so again). It’s not super surprising. Was he the best choice? No. But it’s far from the most egregious Brewer ever selected as MVP – and no, I don’t mean Braun last year. I mean Fingers in ’81.
Not to mention Bill James calling Pete Vuckovich the worst Cy Young choice ever in 1982
I distinctly recall that Ruben Sierra was considered the frontrunner for the MVP for most of the 1989 season, then faded a little at the end (he finished 2nd), and Yount snuck by him at the end of the season.
I actually think that Yount as 1989 MVP was a good non-traditional choice by the writers, digging a little deeper than their usual standards. Consider:
- he wasn’t on a division winner, or a contender (MIL: 81-81)
- he didn’t lead in any of the Triple Crown categories (.318 BA, 4th// 103 RBI, 7th – Sierra had 119)
- he didn’t lead the AL in any offensive category (closest was 2nd in TB, 3rd in XBH and runs)
BUT, he was…
- Top-10 in most offensive categories, Top-5 in many of them, both mainstream and advanced (some of which didn’t exist then)
- played a valuable up-the-middle position (CF) fairly well, although the B-R Rfield disagrees with me (1989: -14), the consensus at the time was that he was a very good CFer.
- considered a team leader on the Brewers
Ok, maybe Yount wouldn’t have been my first choice for MVP (I would’ve gone with Bret Saberhagen); I’ll give the BBWAA credit for not going with the knee-jerk mainstream indicators, such as “best player on a division winner” or “led in a Triple Crown stat”.
Saberhagen finished 8th in the MVP voting, the highest of any pitcher. His WAR (8.6) was tied for 1st with Rickey Henderson. It’s odd he diidn’t get more support, as Clemens won the MVP just three years earlier. I guess that if you’re
a pitcher, you’ve got to win the division to even be considered.
Alas, that seems to be Crime Dog’s lot in his baseball life. No MVP, no Hall of Fame, and seven HR short of the 500 mark. He’s still got that cool “HR titles in both leagues” thing going though, which is nice.
2 MVPS – Hank Greenberg:
1935 – 1B
1940 – LF (made way for Rudy York at first)
7+ WAR at two different positions:
- Mel Ott/1938 had 8.7 WAR mainly at third, he was usually a RFer
- Ty Cobb/1907 had 8.4 WAR in RF (B-R doesn’t break it down, but Crawford was in CF the first few years of Cobb’s career, before Cobb took over CF),then too many years to list in CF
- Honus Wagner in 1900 (mostly RF), then 1901/1902 (all over the place), after 1902 many years at SS, too many to list
- Rod Carew, 2B in 1975, 1B in 1976, 1977
The first name I thought of was “Pete Rose”, but he exceeded 7 WAR only once, in his MVP year of 1973.
I’m sure there are many great players who put up 7+ WAR at two different positions, I’m not up to checking them all. For instance Babe Ruth switched between RF and LF, Musial often switched between LF and 1B, etc…
Not on the list, but Richie Allen 9.0 WAR in 1964 at 3B for Philadelphia and the player preferably known as Dick Allen had 9.0 WAR in 1972 (MVP) at 1B for White Sox.
According to the decade reviews in the”win shares” tome BJHBA, Allen was the best player in MLB for both 1964 and 1972….no MVP in 1964 after the Phillies collapsed – Callison finished second to Boyer
Pete Rose was famously an All-Star at like 6 positions or something. Paul Molitor did something similar. Although all three of his MVPs were won as a C, Yogi Berra was also an All-Star as an OF in ’61. Yount is the only player I can think of to do it at two “up-the-middle” spots.
Harmon Killebrew won his MVP playing out-of-position, at 3B.
Dick Allen won his ROY at third, his MVP at first.
Stan Musial’s three MVPs were split; two were in the OF (and he moved around a bit there); the middle one was a 1B.
Hank Greenberg won his first award as a 1B, the second as a LF.
In the late-career-position-switch category, we have a couple of entries. Rod Carew won an MVP as a 1B, although he had come up as a 2B. Ernie Banks won both of his MVPs as a SS, though he wound up switching positions and actually played more 1B in his career.
Barry Bonds is also interesting to consider, because I’ve heard it was said he could have come up as a CF, though the Bucs had Van Slyke at the time, forcing Bonds to LF. Still, in all seven of his MVP seasons, he played only 12 innings as a CF (all in 1990) and the rest as a LF or DH.
That’s all I can think of and could quickly verify, though there may be more.
Darin Erstad and Placido Polanco are the only players to win Gold Gloves at multiple positions. Polanco did it at two infield positions (3B & 2B) while Erstad did it for 1B and OF.
Remarkable amount of stability in Doug’s list since 2003.
Consecutive years on Doug’s list with the same four guys:
68-69 McCovey/Morgan/Santo/Fregosi
72-73 McCovey/Morgan/Bando/Campaneris
82-83 K. Hernandez/Grich/Schmidt/Yount
86-87 E. Murray/Whitker/Boggs/Ripken
91-92 W. Clark/Sandberg/Boggs/Ripken
03-04 Helton/Kent/Rolen/A-Rod
05-06 Helton/Kent/Rolen/Tejada
07-09 Pujols/Utley/A-Rod/Jeter
10-11 Pujols/Utley/A-Rod/Hanley Ramirez
Going forward, Pujols will undoubtedly remain tops at first base, and Longoria will take over at 3rd. Second and Short are a tossup. Here are the top 4 year totals coming into this year for the top 2/3 at each position.
1st Base: Pujols (30.9), Gonzalez (22.6)
2nd Base: Utley (22.1), Pedroia (20.4), Kinsler (19.4)
Short: Ramirez (18.6), Tulowitzki (18.5)
3rd Base: Longoria (24.1), Beltre (15.8)
I’m pretty sure Hanley is moving to third to make room for Reyes. That leaves Tulo tops at short for a little while at least.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Well, that leaves Escobar (14.3) and Reyes (14.1) next in line behind Tulo. Too far back to catch him unless he gets injured.
In addition to Ramirez moving to 3B, Utley left Clearwater to see a specialist in Phila for his ailing knee…probably an insurance claim by Phila waiting to happen
I’m not surprised by the stability at all. The very nature of rolling five year leaders takes out the fluke greet seasons and leaves you with those who are consistent.
Agreed, providing they stay at position and healthy.
Doug – check it out…someone has turned this into a Sporcle quiz!
http://www.sporcle.com/games/piano_guitar/mlb-best-infielders-1961-2011
Pretty easy quiz, since they have a link to the answer.
Nice to be noticed, though.