Circle of Greats: 1923 Balloting

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This post is for voting and discussion in the 59th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG). This round adds to the ballot those players born in 1923. Rules and lists are after the jump.

This week’s new group joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full set of players eligible to receive your votes this round. As usual, the new group of 1923-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:00 PM EDT Thursday, June 5, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:00 PM EDT Tuesday, June 3.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1923 Round Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1923 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The 12 current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The new group of 1923 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Sandy Koufax (eligibility guaranteed for 13 rounds)
Duke Snider (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Edgar Martinez (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Kenny Lofton (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Whitey Ford (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Willie McCovey (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Minnie Minoso (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ryne Sandberg (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1923, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Red Schoendienst
Bobby Thomson
Ray Boone
Larry Doby
Walt Dropo
Solly Hemus
Gus Zernial
Bruce Edwards

Pitchers (born in 1923, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Mike Garcia
Russ Meyer
Bob Porterfield
Bob Kuzava
Paul Minner

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Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Kuzava and Porterfield were traded for one another.

Porterfield’s season with 9 shutouts also featured nine games of giving up 5+ runs.

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Along those lines, Red Schoendienst was traded for Bobby Thomson (and others); Gus Zernial was part of a 3-team trade involving Minnie Minoso.

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Vote:

Kenny Lofton (for the win)
Eddie Murray (for being steady)
Craig Biggio (for having a 5-6 name)

BillH

9 years ago

McCovey, Murray, Ford

Darien

9 years ago

Lofton, Killebrew, and Ryno

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

I know it’s still early, but I’m kinda shocked that Duke Snider hasn’t appeared on any ballots yet – the guy was almost inducted last round!

I’m going with the same ballot as last time, and hoping I’ll have one of them inducted:

Duke Snider
Ryne Sandberg
Edgar Martinez

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

I was likewise surprised Dr. Doom. And like you, I’ll repeat my ballot from last time:

Snider
Murray
Sandberg

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

The Duke appeared on 41.5% of the ballots in the main 1924 round. The random chance of an event that occurs 41.5% of the time failing to occur once in the first three trials is 20% or one in five. So assuming Snider is exactly as popular this time as last (not a safe assumption given the variations in candidates, voters and voter preferences round to round), there was still a one in five chance that he would have received no votes in the first three ballots. Or, in plain English, as you said, “still early”.

Andy

9 years ago

Koufax
Snider
Martinez

koma

9 years ago

Sandy Koufax, Whitey Ford, Craig Biggio

Steve

9 years ago

In no particular order: Duke Snider, Whitey Ford, Willie McCovey

oneblankspace

9 years ago

Reply to Steve

alphabetical by first name / nickname ?

JEV

9 years ago

Koufax, McCovey, Killebrew

Jeff Harris

9 years ago

Martinez, McCovey, Biggio

9 years ago

Edgar Martinez, Kenny Lofton, and returning to my ballot after a looooooong time (after only appearing once), Ryne Sandberg.

Bix

9 years ago

Koufax, Snider, McCovey

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

It has been suggested in past comments that going forward, instead of doing a Redemption Round every 10 birth years, we do a Redemption Round every ten ballot rounds. Because of the double rounds we do every third birth year, that would increase the frequency of the Redemption Rounds a bit. I think that adjustment might be a good idea, so I’m throwing it out there as a tentative proposal: under this new system, the next Redemption Round would be concurrent with the second of the 1922 votes, instead of waiting for the 1919 vote. Comments on that proposal are… Read more »

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

I’m in favor of increasing the frequency of redemption rounds, I think there are at least a few players in the redemption pool who are equal to or superior to some of the current holdover list.

Brendan Bingham

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

I am also in favor of more frequent redemption rounds.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Either way. I agree with David Horwich below that there are quite a few guys in need of redemption who are the equals (or betters) of current holdovers. The issue is that there are SO many (at least that’s my opinion) that it’s hard to get enough consensus to give them any momentum. Obviously, Edgar and Kenny were able to pull it off, as they’re both doing extremely well. But Robbie Alomar, Kevin Brown, Rick Reuschel, Dwight Evans, Darrell Evans, Mark McGwire, Reggie Smith, Graig Nettles, Sal Bando, Ken Boyer, Dick Allen, Keith Hernandez… man, there are A LOT of… Read more »

Michael Sullivan

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

I like this idea as well. In fact, if I’d thought about it, I’d have suggested that any player in their first year of eligibility or coming off a redemption round be eligible to stay on the ballot if they receive any votes at all. That would avoid the problems of players getting left behind because they come in during a stacked ballot year, while lesser players end up making and sitting on the holdover list. That’s one reason the top dozen or so of the redemption list are about as strong as the holdovers — it has more to… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to Michael Sullivan

I understand the thinking behind giving redemption round winners an extra round of eligibility. Indeed, one way to add a little extra piquancy to the redemption rounds might be to give the number one vote-getter in the redemption round an additional round of eligibility, while the number two vote-getter would merely get back on the main ballot without the extra round. The problem with anything like that, though, is that it would give better treatment to a redemption round winner, who was after all at least once dropped from the main ballot, than it does to bubble guys on the… Read more »

Michael Sullivan

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Again, it’s entirely dependent on who is coming on in that year. This isn’t like the hall of fame voting where we get 10 slots. We get 3, in situations where most of us have 6-7 (or more) of the possibilities as in, so we don’t get to vote for everyone we think belongs. Anyone who comes up (or gets redeemed right before) a crush year is vulnerable, even if most of us think they should ultimately get in. It’s not too hard to get seven votes in a year like 1923, we have 12 holdovers, and only 1 new… Read more »

bells

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

I am definitely in favour of not giving any extra credit to redemption round winners. They can stand on their own on the ballot or they can drop back off, as far as I’m concerned. That’s the simplicity of this process. I’m definitely in favour of more frequent redemption rounds though, which I’m sure I’ve said before (I might have even been the one to have said every ten rounds instead of years, but here it is again for the record).

Editor

Bryan O'Connor

9 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals: Martinez 41.3 Lofton 39.3 Snider 39.2 McCovey 38.9 Sandberg 38.8 Biggio 36.3 Ashburn 33.9 Murray 33.7 Killebrew 33.0 Koufax 32.3 Doby 32.2 Minoso 30.6 Ford 29.3 Schoendienst 15.1 It’s hard to argue that Larry Doby lost a lot of productive years to segregation, since he joined the Indians at 23 and struggled out of the gate, but he has a reasonable case for the Circle. From 1948 to 1956, Doby was worth 47.2 WAR/31 WAA. That’s better than any nine-year stretch McCovey, Killebrew, or Murray had and comparable to Biggio’s and Lofton’s… Read more »

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Bryan O'Connor

Bryan – One other point re: Doby. He primarily played second and short in the Negro Leagues but was moved to Center since the Indians already had Joe Gordon and Lou Boudreau. Obviously we have no idea how Doby might have fared defensively if he had stayed in the middle infield. Still, I think it’s possible that he might have had something like 55 WAR had he not switched positions. At the very least, he had to learn a new position while also being one of the first black players.

Hartvig

9 years ago

Reply to David P

Plus he had only 33 plate appearances in 29 games and played 3 different positions in his 6 games on the field- meaning he was being used almost exclusively as a pinch hitter in his first season. I’m not certain that any player could come into the major leagues- especially under the conditions that Doby was coming in- and thrive getting 1 plate appearance every 2 or 3 games. Doby lost 2 years to military service prior to 1946 and did extremely well that year in the Negro League when they still contained the like of Satchel Paige and many… Read more »

Michael Sullivan

9 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

yeah, I realized looking ahead that a few guys who didn’t pass my initial no-doubter test, probably should have, as they lost a lot of time in the war.

mosc

9 years ago

Ford, Koufax, Biggio

I think Snider will win this but I don’t think he’s the strongest player listed.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

Interesting. I feel literally exactly the opposite about Snider. I think he’s the strongest player on the ballot, and I don’t think he’ll win this round. I think, like with what happened to Pete Rose after the other runoff, there’s a bit of a “hangover” after we spent the last five days thinking about Snider so much, and I think his support will wane relative to the support of his opponents (for Rose, it was Jim Palmer who suddenly leapt ahead, after finishing decisively behind Rose prior to the runoff). Admittedly, Snider leads right now (8), but Lofton (6) and… Read more »

9 years ago

Ashburn Koufax Snider

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Edwin, Edgar, and Eddie

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

I guess you could call this the Board of Ed ballot.

Michael Sullivan

9 years ago

Agree with Bryan O on Larry Doby. I think he’s worth a good full look and I hope he stays on the ballot for a bit. Going strictly by Hall Rating, he’s way out of the picture, but then so is Sandy Koufax.

He had a great sustained peak, doing what he did in only 13 seasons, and I think, like Minoso, you’ve got to give him some bonus for being an early barrier breaker.

Paul E

9 years ago

McCovey, Sandberg, Snider.

I’d like to see Larry Doby make the CoG, however, at this time, I can not see voting for him (on merit) ahead of a contemporary CF as good as Duke Snider

Editor

Bryan O'Connor

9 years ago

Reply to Paul E

Was Snider that much better than Doby? Each had a cup of coffee in ’47, then they shared “prime” years, roughly from ’48 to ’58. In that time, they hit: Snider .304/.381/.561 (144 OPS+) Doby .285/.388/.496 (139 OPS+) Baseball Reference gives Snider 11 Rfield during that stretch. Doby gets 20. Their baserunning numbers were almost identical. Snider out-WARs Doby, 58.9 – 50.7, largely due to playing in the superior league. Snider added some value by playing slightly above replacement level through his mid-thirties, while injuries left Doby done as a productive player by 34 and out of the league by… Read more »

Paul E

9 years ago

Reply to Bryan O'Connor

BO’C: Per their four finest (peak) seasons, we have: WAR oWAR OPS+ 25.9 23.5 154 33.9 32.3 165 That is the difference, plain and simple. If you were a GM, which of these two guys would you want? Snider didn’t contribute at the major league level until age 22 (1949), save for a couple of hundred AB’s as a 20 and 21 year old. If you want to assume Doby was a 20-22 year old Ty Cobb, Mel Ott, or even Mickey Mantle while toiling in the confines of segregationist baseball, you can do that. I just don’t see their… Read more »

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to Bryan O'Connor

I agree with Byran on this one. It’s hard to differentiate these guys they had similar careers. Outside factors would push me towards Doby.

brp

9 years ago

Reply to Bryan O'Connor

That’s a .065 difference in slugging percentage, which is about equivalent to the difference between Miguel Cabrera & Alfonso Soriano for their careers.

For their full careers, Snider is #34 in slugging and Doby #136. The only CFs ahead of Snider are DiMaggio, Mays, Mantle, and Hack Wilson.

The difference in career slugging between Snider and Doby is bigger than the difference between Doby and Andy Van Slyke.

Obviously there’s a lot more to the game than just slugging percentage but let’s not pretend those slash lines are roughly equivalent because Doby has a slight OBP edge.

brp

9 years ago

Snider to win
Killebrew and Murray because they’re almost off the ballot and it feels like we’re really light on 1B, and I sometimes feel WAR over-punishes 1B.

aweb

9 years ago

Lofton, Martinez, Biggio

Chris C

9 years ago

Biggio, Edgar, Sandberg

David Horwich

9 years ago

Martinez, Sandberg, Snider

I’m kind of hoping Sandberg can get off the bubble, at long last (not that he seems in any great of falling off the ballot despite being a bubble boy for many rounds) – to me he’s one of the top-10 second basemen of all time, & if not a no-doubt CoG’er at least a not-much-doubter.

Andy

9 years ago

Snider, Martinez, Koufax

Abbott

9 years ago

Murray, Biggio, McCovey

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Some tidbits on this ballot’s new additions. – Red Schoendienst is one of only three players to lead his league in doubles and sacrifice hits in the same season. Who are the others? – Bobby Thomson appeared in this 1957 milestone game. What was this milestone that involved several players, including Thomson? – Ray Boone is the only Tiger 3rd baseman with 4 seasons (1953-56) of 20 HR and 80 RBI. – Larry Doby leads all Indian outfielders with 7 seasons (1949-55) of 20 HR and 3.5 WAR. – Walt Dropo is one of only two rookies to lead his… Read more »

brp

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Ted Williams is the other rookie to lead in RBI + TB.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to brp

That is correct.

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Not sure if this is correct, but Snider, Hodges, Thompson, and Campanella all had 200+ HR through 1956. Mathews was at 190, and hit his 10th HR of the season in the game. So I’m guessing the “milestone” was the first time 5 players with 200+ HR appeared in the same game.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

Right idea but the first game in which 5 players appeared who had then hit 200 HR was this one.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BOS/BOS195009070.shtml

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

How about the first NL game in which that occurred?

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

No. The first such NL game was this one.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BRO/BRO195605150.shtml

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

How about 6 players with 200+ HR? Didn’t realize Pafko had 200+ as well (I kept checking more obvious names like Aaron and Adcock, and not the leadoff hitter).

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

That’s it.

This game almost didn’t happen. It was the only one in a 9-game stretch that Pafko played, and three days later, Thomson was traded to the Giants for Red Schoendienst. And, finslly, it required Eddie Mathews to homer in the 9th inning.

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

A-Rod, Cecil Fielder, and Jim Rice are the AL players to twice lead the league in HRs and RBI while striking out more than 100 times.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

That is correct.

The other 10 players lead the AL in HR and RBI with 100+ strikeouts are Killebrew, Howard, Allen, Jackson, Armas, Canseco, Griffey, Ortiz, Teixeira and Chris Davis.

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Mike Garcia led the league in ERA and ERA+ as a rookie. Are there any other rookies who accomplished those feats?

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to David P

At least Mark Fidrych in 1976.

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to David P

And Gary Peters in 1963. And Saul Rogovin in 1951 (I’d like to say that’s a name that just popped into my head, but I’m just scrolling through the ERA leaders picking players who *might* have been rookies).

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to David P

Others to do this include, Harry Krause (1909), King Cole (1910), Vean Gregg (1911), Jeff Tesreau (1912), Wilcy Moore (1927), Cy Blanton (1935), Jim Turner (1937), Elmer Riddle (1941), Gene Bearden (1948), Hoyt Wilhelm (1952).

So, only Fidrych has done this in the past 50 years. Masahiro Tanaka has a chance this year.

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Thanks Artie Z. and Doug! That’s a much longer list than I would have expected.

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Looking at this list, unlike leading the league in 2Bs and SH in the same season, being a rookie and leading in ERA and ERA+ does not help you punch a ticket to the HOF unless you turn to a reliever.

9 years ago

Reply to David P

thought Blue was one but he had 80 innings prior to ’71

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Boudreau and Billy Herman led their leagues in SH and 2Bs in the same year. So I guess that in order to lock up a HOF spot one need only lead in both during the same year.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

Correct again.

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Ray Boone and Tito Francona were once traded for each other. They both have sons who went on to play and manage at the major league level. And both sons also played for the Alaska Goldpanners. Meanwhile, Tito’s son Terry Francona is most known for his stint as Red Sox manager, a job he got at least partially because of a home run hit by Ray’s grandson Aaron.

Mike HBC

9 years ago

Koufax, Snider, Ford.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Doby, Koufax, Ford

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Okay, here is something great:
Five seconds of video.

An impeccable swing, and the body language that follows.

(Two outs, 9th inning, down 11-9.
Percival brings it at 97)

http://youtu.be/MDDcJndvvQ0?t=5m4s

bcholm

9 years ago

Koufax, Killebrew, McCovey

Francisco

9 years ago

Duke Snider, Sandy Koufax, Craig Biggio

Dr. Remulak

9 years ago

Biggio, Koufax, Ford.

9 years ago

Bobby Thomson is, remarkably, not the greatest ballplayer to be born in Glasgow. That title goes to 19th century 265 game winner Jim McCormick.

Jeff Hill

9 years ago

Edgar Martinez, The Duke, Lofton

oneblankspace

9 years ago

7 – Biggio, led his league in HBP 5 times, exactly 1 HBP per 10. GP over his career
9 – Minoso, who led the AL in stolen bases as a rookie in 1951, with 15% of his career total; led his league in HBP 10 times, 1 HBP per 9.56 GP over his career
2 – Old Red, who led the NL in stolen bases as a rookie in 1945, with 29% of his career total

I never realized Minoso was a cross between Biggio and Schoendienst.

oneblankspace

9 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

To clarify, my post at 64 was intended as a vote for Minoso, Biggio, and Schoendienst.

Arsen

9 years ago

Koufax, Snider, Ashburn

Hub Kid

9 years ago

Duke Snider, Larry Doby, Minnie Minoso

jajacob

9 years ago

lofton, martinez, snider

and yes to more redemption ballots

Nick Pain

9 years ago

Eddie Murray, Duke Snider, Craig Biggio

9 years ago

Snider, McCovey, Koufax

9 years ago

Sandy Koufax, Duke Snider, Edgar Martinez

Hartvig

9 years ago

Snider, Sandberg, Doby

J.R.

9 years ago

Koufax, Ford, Biggio

mosc

9 years ago

You know this COG process is going to get much harder for me when we get into guys who had significant time in the negro leagues. It’s such a blight on the history of baseball that it’s very hard to remain objective and not shower these guys with accolades they didn’t have the opportunity to show if they deserved or not. Doby was in the MLB by 22 but in another few rounds the list of these guys with both significant major league success and negro league time is quite long. I particularly can’t stand guys like Doby not getting… Read more »

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

I don’t think Paige is going to be eligible, as he had neither 10 years in the majors nor 20 WAR.

donburgh

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

I was wondering about this recently. Can Paige make it on to a main ballot through a redemption round, or is he not eligible for that either?

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to donburgh

I’m pretty sure the answer to that is “no”, too – looking at the thread for the previous redemption round, its stated purpose is:

“…to select two players who will be restored back on to the main ballot after having been previously been dropped from eligibility.”

Since Paige and the other Negro Leaguers aren’t eligible in the first place, they aren’t eligible for redemption rounds, either.

This is of course not an official answer.

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

Well I hope nobody will find it too disruptive if I add him to my ballot anyway. I’m not trying to stick it to anybody, I just think he deserves it truly and honestly, not just symbolically.

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

mosc @ 92 – I understand your feelings, to be sure, but recall that our purpose is not to vote on the best 115+ baseball players ever – if it were, then Paige (and Gibson, and Charleston, and a few others) would be no-doubters, in my book – but rather to shadow (=improve upon) the BBWAA’s selections for the Hall of Fame. Although Paige did receive one symbolic HoF vote in the 1951 BBWAA election (I wonder who cast that vote?), it’s pretty clear the BBWAA never considered the Negro Leaguers part of their bailwick, since they were all selected… Read more »

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

Adding on to what David said above, I’m not sure that honoring pioneers or those who broke the race barrier or those who had a significant impact upon the game outside the white lines really falls within the scope of what we’re trying to accomplish here.

If we were voting for a straight-up Hall of Fame, then yes. But that’s not what we’re doing here.

Paul E

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

mosc: “How are other people going to balance the emotion of outrage for this era with statistical analysis?” Well, the object of the game was to win, so I imagine a statistical tool that has long been over utilized like WAR (WINS above replacement) might be a good, objective place to start. Was Satchel Paige better than Walter Johnson? Probably not, but maybe as good as Roberts and Feller….alas, we will never know. Bill James in his Historical Abstract gave a good deal of the old-time Negro League players a ton of credit for being “legendary”. I don’t think there… Read more »

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to Paul E

Really great thought provoking comments guys. Paul, your point about racism in Baseball not ending in 1947 is very important and I did sort of imply it was less significant.

birtelcom, can you change my vote please adding Doby and dropping Biggio?

Ford, Koufax, Doby

Thanks guys.

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

Could we somehow devise a separate Negro League vote at the end of this? Would be a big project for sure. Obviously it’s up to the HHS inner circle.

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

mosc – if voting for the COG was an easy task, everyone would do it! I think David is correct in that the number of players who will be impacted by the Negro Leagues and be eligible will be minimal. We’re already on two of the most difficult players, Minoso and Doby, with Campy being another difficult player to evaluate. I think that Campy is actually the most difficult to evaluate because (1) he’s older than Doby and Minoso and (2) he’s a catcher, and they generally don’t last as long as other positions, so the necessary career accomplishments are… Read more »

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

Good question, mosc. “How are other people going to balance the emotion of outrage for this era with statistical analysis?” is a good way of putting it, I mean. I’ll give a short answer. One way to think about this might be to look at the total final membership of the COG. We’re aiming for 115 (right now, anyway; might be more like 117 or 118 when we get to the end). To me, with 115, I think using round numbers is instructive. There are 8 positions (plus pitchers; count DHs at their “secondary” positions – 2B or 3B for… Read more »

Hartvig

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

mosc pointed out something to me a while ago about adhering too closely to the “10 best at each position” idea- and you’ve actually already alluded to it in your post- and that is that players tend to change positions over time. You’ve already mentioned Yount moving from shortstop to centerfield (as did Mantle, altho he made the switch in the minors) and the DH types. Barry Bonds started out as a center fielder & was a good one who only moved because the Pirates got Van Slyke. Kaline was a center fielder until heel/ankle problems cost him a step.… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

@91/DD;

Also, some positions are deeper than others; for instance right field versus third base. We’ve already elected the #10 and #14 RFers by JAWS, and there are several more viable candidates (Waner, Sam Crawford, Joe Jackson) just outside the JAWS Top-10.

OTOH, we have elected six of each into the COG (it’s 7-6 in favor of 3B, if you count Molitor as a third baseman).

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

I agree with both of you. Slavish adherence to a positional ranking, when the 11th best RF might be better than the 10th best LF, for example, would be ridiculous.

Kirk

9 years ago

Minoso and Doby because as pioneers they deserve more recognition than they have received. Ford because kept doing well no matter how hard I rooted against him.

bells

9 years ago

Here’s the vote according to my methodology. I take four measures of player value as a gauge of how players compare across advanced metrics that value things slightly differently. Then I give them a cumulative rank with all players on the ballot over 50 WAR, adding their ranking of each measure. Here are the measures: WAR – is it too new to call it ‘classic’? Well, it’s the ‘classic’ way of measuring a player’s value over a player the team could have gotten to replace the player, over that player’s career, to show how ‘good’ that player was. WAA+ –… Read more »

Mike G.

9 years ago

Snider, Martinez, Sandberg

donburgh

9 years ago

Biggio, Lofton, Doby

(Speaking with tongue in cheek) The voters that went for Smoltz in the runoff because ‘he’s been on the ballot forever’ can now turn their attention to Biggio.

latefortheparty

9 years ago

Duke Snider
Kenny Lofton
Ryne Sandberg

Josh

9 years ago

Duke Snider is a must for me. Whitey Ford is a must for me as well. I have no idea who to vote for the third so I read the comments to let everybody else influence me a little. The general support appears to be for Larry Doby so I will give him my third vote. I’m not as sold on Doby being in the COG, but somebody needs to get my 3rd vote and i’m not sold on anybody else really. Yes he may have lost a season or two due to the military and negro leagues, but he… Read more »