Circle of Greats: 1914 Balloting

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This post is for voting and discussion in the 71st round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG). This round adds to the ballot those players born in 1914. Rules and lists are after the jump.

This round’s new group of 1914-born players joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full set of players eligible to receive your votes this round.

The new group of 1914-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EDT Monday, September 22, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Saturday, September 20.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1914 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1914 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The eleven current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1914 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Whitey Ford (eligibility guaranteed for 8 rounds)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Lou Boudreau (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Joe Gordon (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Roberto Alomar (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Roy Campanella (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Minnie Minoso (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1914, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Bill Nicholson
Frankie Hayes
Joe DiMaggio
Buddy Rosar
Mike Tresh
Jimmy Wasdell
Mickey Livingston
Rusty Peters

Pitchers (born in 1914, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Johnny Vander Meer
Harry Brecheen
Ellis Kinder
Elmer Riddle
Johnny Rigney

White Sox pitcher Johnny Rigney makes this list with 20.9 WAR despite pitching in a mere eight seasons, only four of which were full seasons of pitching. Rigney was third in the majors in pitching WAR over the three-year period 1938-1940. During the 1941 season he got caught up in a public relations mess when he requested a 60-day military draft deferment so he could get enough playing time to earn a contract bonus. That request was a particularly sensitive issue with the public because Rigney was engaged to Dorothy Comiskey, daughter of the owner of the White Sox. It turned out Rigney didn’t even need the deferment, because his final pre-induction medical exam disqualified him from military service, based on a perforated eardrum. That medical issue allowed him to finish out the 1941 season. But after Pearl Harbor, the perforated eardrum became a non-factor, Rigney went into the military and his major league playing career was effectively over at age 28. He did end up working for his in-laws in the White Sox front office. His wife inherited the team in 1956 (Rigney serving as co-general manager with his brother-in-law during Dorothy’s tenure as owner), but sold it to Bill Veeck in 1959.

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latefortheparty

9 years ago

Joe DiMaggio
Kevin Brown
Lou Boudreau

ajnrules

9 years ago

Joe DiMaggio
Craig Biggio
Kevin Brown

David P

9 years ago

Dimaggio, Alomar, Murray

Chris C

9 years ago

Biggio, Eckersley, and that DiMaggio guy.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

One newcomer and two holdovers for me:

Joe DiMaggio
Kevin Brown
Joe Gordon

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Kevin Brown is the best pitcher on our ballot. Has been for awhile. By a fair margin. I’ve never had a personal interaction with him. He never said “Take a hike, son.” to my 8 year old wanting an autograph. If all of the anecdotal (or apocryphal) stories of his assholism are true, so be it. Some people have issues. And if Brown’s primary “issue” is that his personality was unpleasant when he was on a baseball field, well maybe for our purposes us statistical minded folks should describe it with an advanced metric. Call it rDick. ______ 1998 Padres,… Read more »

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

A minor quibble: I’m under 30, and I DEFINITELY remember the Kevin Brown contract. I would’ve said 25

Stubby

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

In perfect honesty, I’m twice 30 and I don’t remember the contract. I don’t care if he was a jerk or even if he juiced. I saw Barry Bonds play and he was the greatest ballplayer of the modern era, as far as I’m concerned (modern era being post Mays, Aaron, Mantle, Clemente), and we all know he was the biggest jerk ever born and his head size sure says he juiced, even if he wasn’t caught and hasn’t admitted it. None of that bothers me. I’ve said before that I’m not a stats guy. Perhaps I shouldn’t even be… Read more »

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to Stubby

I didn’t/don’t resent Brown for the Dodgers contract – but I did think the Dodgers were friggin’ idiots for giving a big-money _7 year_ contract to a pitcher entering his age 34 season.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

Ain’t that the truth. I’d like to think it’s because people just weren’t as aware of age analysis then as they are now, but… seriously?!? At 34? You really thought he’d still be good in his 40s? C’est la vie… To Stubby above, the reason that you’ve probably forgotten that contract is that, while Brown was the first $100M man, Griffey joined him the following year, and then came the avalanche. In 2001, there were FOUR $100M dollar contracts signed: Mike Hampton (ouch), Manny Ramirez, and Derek Jeter among them. The fourth $100M contract signed that off-season belonged to Alex… Read more »

JasonZ

9 years ago

Reply to Stubby

Skip Lockwood was nothing without Bob Apodaca.

🙂

jeff hill

9 years ago

Reply to Stubby

Besides being the best ballplayer of our era (sorry Griffey Jr.) Bonds was a jerk but he wasn’t fake either. I’d much rather have a guy be what he is than fool people into thinking he was a good guy (Griffey Jr again). Also, Pedro Martinez was the greatest pitcher I ever saw. No one should be able to do what he did in that era with his body and size.

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Brown is linked to steroids in my mind.

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Vote:

Kevin Brown
Joe DiMaggio
Joe Gordon

9 years ago

Joe DiMaggio, Kevin Brown, Joe Gordon

Francisco

9 years ago

Joe DiMaggio, Craig Biggio, Kevin Brown

Jeff Harris

9 years ago

Brown, Joe D, Alomar

9 years ago

Joe DiMaggio, Whitey Ford, Lou Boudreau

Steven

9 years ago

Joe DiMaggio, Whitey Ford, Roy Campanella.

Dave Humbert

9 years ago

That new guy and two to keep around:
Joe DiMaggio
Roberto Alomar
Dennis Eckersley

oneblankspace

9 years ago

Vince & Dom’s brother Joe
Double-No-hitter Vander Meer
Saturnino Orestes Arrieta Miñoso Armas

changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Saturday, September 20.

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Ellis Kinder once went 23-6 with six shutouts in 252 innings.

Yet his best (WAR) season came as a reliever.

5.1 WAR in 127 innings in 1951 vs
4.9 in the 252 inning campaign.

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Harry Breechen turned one of the more memorable World Series performances in 1946. Four hit shutout to even the series in Game 2. One run complete game to even the series in game 6. Two days later, he’s called into the 8th inning of Game 7 to protect a 3-1 lead. 2nd and 3rd, nobody out. Strikes out Moses. Gets Pesky on a liner to right. Then Dom DiMaggio rips a double to tie it. No problem, you just have to get Ted Williams out. Popout to 2nd, Dom is stranded. In the bottom of the 8th, Enos Slaughter singles.… Read more »

Hartvig

9 years ago

Joe DiMaggio
Joe Gordon
Roy Campanella

I’ll be keeping an eye on Minoso as we get closer to Saturday.

And if there’s anyone who still thinks that the BBWAA did their jobs properly I would suggest that they look at the Hall of Fame vote totals for Johnny Vander Meer and Arky Vaughan.

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

To offer a mild defense of the BBWAA re Vaughan…during the time he was on the HoF ballot (’50s and ’60s) his outstanding OBP was essentially irrelevant. His counting stats are nothing impressive because he retired early, and he was a bit player on the one pennant-winning team of which he was a member. He hit for a nice average, he had the one obviously big year in 1935 (although he still only finished 3rd in the MVP voting), and he was a 9-time All Star, but otherwise he had little to offer the voters by the standards of the… Read more »

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

True, he didn’t offer much “by the standards of the electorate at the time,” but does that really prove Hartvig’s point to be wrong? I don’t think anyone would disagree with your statement; it’s just that their “standards of the time” were stupid. They claimed to have greater insight than the general populace, and they did – but that does not mean that they had GOOD insight. They should’ve been able to see things “beyond the surface numbers.” I mean, wasn’t that part of the whole shtick of having the writers vote in the first place? They were supposed to… Read more »

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Well, I did say it was a mild defense. Less facetiously…remember that these were in the days before the first MacMillan encyclopedia; Turkin and Thompson’s work was, as I understand it, far less comprehensive and complete. Remember too that OBP wasn’t an official statistic until 1984, and as far as I know hadn’t been conceived of or mentioned publicly prior to Branch Rickey’s 1954 article for Life magazine, “Goodby to Some Old Baseball Ideas”, which was based on the work of Allan Roth. (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/btf/pages/essays/rickey/goodby_to_old_idea.htm) So I find it hard to condemn the BBWAA of the ’50s and ’60s for their… Read more »

David P

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

Also, according to this article, the HOF didn’t start sending out ballots with names pre-printed on them till (likely) 1962. So before then, voters had to rely on their memory of who was eligible. You had so many weird things going on before then, like Warren Spahn getting a vote in 1958, seven years before he retired.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/how-joe-dimaggio-forever-changed-cooperstown-voting/

Lawrence Azrin

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

@38/DH;

I have the Turkin and Thompson guide. Batters only had games played and BA listed (not sure of pitchers). You would not believe how small it was (from 1951?) I think that there were more comprehensive MLB stats published by the Sporting News.

HOWEVER – that _does not mean_ that baseball people, from time immemorial weren’t aware of the importance of a high OBP; I’m sure that John McGraw, Connie Mack, and Joe McCarthy (amongst many other managers) knew the value of a guy who walked a lot.

Voomo – I’m only 200 comments behind you…

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

Whoa! Lawrence, your comment made me look at the comment leaderboard. I guess I’ve snuck my way into the top 15. Huh. Guess I’ve been a bit active lately. More likely, some of our other friends have just been a little less frequent in their posting.

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

LA @ 75 –

Thanks for the info on the slenderness of the T/T encyclopedias.

Anyway, it was the writers, not managers and other insiders, who were voting on the Hall. Is there any evidence the BBWAA electorate valued OBP 50-60 years ago?

My sense is that they didn’t – after all, Ted Williams was criticized for taking too many walks. (a line of thinking that persists today, e.g. in re Joey Votto)

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

David H- I think, in the case of “taking a walk,” the issue of whether or not it’s bad is ALWAYS about the public perception of the player. If a player is disliked, taking a walk is bad. If a player is beloved, taking a walk is just “having a good eye.” Mark McGwire was never criticized (that I can remember) for taking a walk; he still piled up his RBI, and he was well-liked. Ted Williams, because the media disliked him, had to be disliked for SOMETHING, so not swinging at bad pitches easily becomes a negative. That’s how… Read more »

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

Dr. D @ 80 –

Hmm, interesting supposition. I seem to recall – but I could be mistaken – that Frank Thomas (the Younger and Greater) also caught some of that “should be swinging more” criticism, and to the best of my recollection he wasn’t an unpopular player.

As for Ted Williams – he gave the writers plenty for which to dislike him – spitting at fans & all that. But you’re probably right that they (the writers) wouldn’t hesitate to criticize him on any pretext, given how antagonistic a relationship he had with them.

JasonZ

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

The value and perception of the “walk” In 1889 the last of multiple rule changes occurred which established 4 balls and you “walk” down to first base. The subsequent decade delivered a team still remembered today. The Baltimore Orioles. The Baltimore “chop”, these guys invented it. The hit and run. Stolen bases. Good Pitching. Travel back in time to the 1890’s and attend a game in Baltimore, my guess is you will see all of the above. One more thing you will see, bases on balls. I will assume that the 1890’s Orioles knew the value and wisdom of a… Read more »

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

I looked up the “automatic elections” rule on the Hall’s website (they actually have a page dedicated to rule changes), but didn’t find it there. Sorry.

Also, in favor of Hartvig’s proposition that we do a better job than the Hall of Fame, DiMaggio only needs another few of votes before he guarantees a better percentage on his first COG ballot than he got on his first HOF ballot (44.3%).

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

My impression about that initial Joe D. Hall of Fame vote is that many voters were applying a de facto waiting period after retirement before they would vote a player in, even though the Hall itself was not yet imposing such a rule. DiMaggio did get voted into the Hall earlier into his retirement than anyone could today.

JasonZ

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

David, RE. Don Larsen. I think his annual vote totals simply represented the number of sports writers who felt his accomplishment was so significant that it needed to be recognized. This despite the fact that his career as a whole was below average. As others have said already, parsing decades old HOF voting totals may be fun, but really offers little relevance today. And the lesson of Don Larsen voters is that these voters have always felt entitled to make statements and set their own agenda’s. Exactly like the differing standards employed by voters today, some like Dan Lebatard, sell… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin

9 years ago

Reply to JasonZ

This is no different than MVP voters having their own personal standards:
– many will not consider pitchers, at least not for the #1 spot
– some will not consider players not on playoff team (or at least on a team that was close to getting into the playoffs)
– DHs get penalized

Lets not even get into the fascination with RBI totals, though that wasn’t true last year (at least in the NL).

JasonZ

9 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

Agreed. The vagaries of award and HOF voting throughout the years has rankled more than a few hairs.

Clayton Kershaw.

Heard this from little Mikey Greenberg early today.

In 24 of 25 starts this season he has allowed
3 earned runs or less.

Go back to 1900 before you find a pitcher who did that in a higher percentage of stats.

This stat alone makes me say he should win both
MVP and CY Young.

BTW, who was that pitcher??

9 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

@73 LA: I did a little mini-investigation into RBIs and the MVP not long ago and, fortunately, the fascination seems to be dying out. The MVP winner was also the RBI champion 47% of the time between 1952 and 1989. (If we ignore seasons in which the MVP winner was a pitcher, 50% of all MVP winners were also the RBI champ between 1950 and 1989.)

However, since 1999 the league’s RBI leader has also won the MVP on only three occasions (Howard ’06, A-Rod ’07, Cabrera ’12).

no statistician but

9 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

RJ: I just went through the MVP votes from 1952 on, and I only find four really objectionable choices up to 1989—according to my reckoning, naturally—among the RBI leader-winners. The rest are either clear cut or arguable, provided you assume that pitchers have their own award, and I am in that camp and will stay there until there is a true equivalent award for position players to balance the CY. There are also three really bad MVP choices—Maury Wills, Rollie Fingers, Willie Hernandez—that don’t involve the RBI leader. In the decade of the 1990s, which you don’t address, there are… Read more »

9 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

nsb: Yes, I’m not saying all RBI-champs are necessarily bad MVP candidates, but given how frequently they won in the past I have to imagine that RBI totals were being used as a tie-breaker more than they are now. It is possible that something about the type of player who leads the league in RBI has changed, or at least changed in the steroid era, and that the lower scoring era we are in will somehow lend itself to more RBI-MVPs going forward. Before Giancarlo’s injury, it was entirely possible that the leagues would be led in RBI by plausible… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

nsb @ 97: Regarding Willie Hernandez winning the MVP in 1984 — not only did Willie H. produce the highest Win Probability Added in the majors that season (including AL and NL, hitters and pitchers), the only higher WPAs that had been seen in the majors in the preceding 15 years had been Willie McCovey’s 1969 MVP year and Joe Torre’s 1971 MVP year. Of course WPA was not even a gleam in a sabermetrician’s eye at the time, but instinctively, voters seem to have recognized the leverage-based importance of Willie’s role that season, which can now be expressed numerically… Read more »

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

@108
birtelcom, the thing is, does the pitcher ever really deserve ALL that WPA, when there is no “fielding” component? Sure, Willie pitched in clutch situations, and pitched really well (basically pitched like himself, sans allowing homers). But the Tigers’ fielders get NONE of that credit. Pitcher WPA has the same major weakness as RA9 or ERA, in that regard. Still an undeniably great season; maybe even a Cy Young season. But me? I’d have rather seen a different MVP (Alan Trammell being perhaps a better choice on Hernandez’s own team!); but that’s just me.

no statistician but

9 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

birtelcom: MY bias is showing, I guess, but a reliever having a good season has the opportunity to appear to be far better statistically than he is in reality. In the case of the 1984 Tigers, who lead the division wire-to-wire and were never seriously challenged; and who had Lemon, Trammell, and Gibson putting up WAR higher than Hernandez, and Whittaker close, I can’t see the superiority despite your suggestion about WPA. It was a team like the 1998 Yankees, good across the board. Besides, Hernandez was a pitcher, which to my way of thinking disqualifies him from the award.… Read more »

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

birt: If we really have to use some sort of WPA-based metric for MVP, WPA/LI is a much better idea than raw WPA because it helps smooth out the obvious advantage of pitching for a good team that is often ahead.

Hernandez WPA ’84: 8.6 wins
Hernandez WPA/LI ’84: 4.3 wins

He still led the league in WPA/LI, but only by a small margin.

T-Bone

9 years ago

Biggio, Campanella, and some guy named Mr. Coffee.

Andy

9 years ago

Dimaggio, Kevin Brown, Biggio

billh

9 years ago

Joltin Joe, Steady Eddie, Robby Alomar

With apologies to Ford, and Campanella, but I only get 3 votes

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to billh

Joe Gordon doesn’t even get an apology?

Darien

9 years ago

DiMaggio, Biggio, and Killebrewio.

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to Darien

Most Career WAR, Last Name Ending in “io”:
1. Joe DiMaggio 78.2
2. Craig Biggio 65.1
3. Luis Aparicio 55.8
4. Dom DiMaggio 31.9
5. Pedro Astacio 28.4
6. Chris Bosio 24.6
7. Ernie Broglio 18.2
8. Vince DiMaggio 17.1
9. Scott Spiezio 8.8
10. Ed Abbaticchio 8.6
(That’s overall WAR for non-pitchers, pitching WAR for pitchers)

Killebrewio would be indeed be third on that list.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

birtelcom: How did you find that data for names ending in io? I got it on my own.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

birtelcom: Never mind, I see how you did it. My method was more complicated.

KalineCountry Ron

9 years ago

Joe D.
Campy
Minnie

aweb

9 years ago

DiMaggio
Brown
Boudreau

Steve

9 years ago

Whitey Ford; Harmon Killebrew; Roy Campanella

Mike HBC

9 years ago

DiMaggio, Boudreau, Eck.

JEV

9 years ago

DiMaggio, Killebrew, Campanella

mosc

9 years ago

I’ll take Campanella and the Joe’s. Ford’s not going anywhere anytime soon.

Editor

Bryan O'Connor

9 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals:

DiMaggio 54.6
Brown 43.3
Boudreau 42.3
Gordon 37.1
Alomar 37.1
Biggio 36.3
Eckersley 34.3
Murray 33.7
Killebrew 33.0
Minoso 30.6
Ford 29.3
Brecheen 23.5
Nicholson 20.0
Campanella 19.2

Only a handful of players we’ve looked at didn’t have a below-average season to adjust in this calculation. DiMaggio’s worst were 1.4 in his final season and 2.6 in his first.

Kevin Brown gets a one-ballot timeout for bad behavior.

DiMaggio, Gordon, Boudreau

BryanM

9 years ago

Reply to Bryan O'Connor

what did brown do between ballots? aww — Dimaggio, bourdreau, campy

brp

9 years ago

DiMaggio
Gordon
Murray

dr. remulak

9 years ago

DiMaggio, Biggio, Ford.

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to dr. remulak

I count 16 regular season games that included both Ford and DiMaggio, including eight in which they were both in the starting lineup, plus the fourth and final game of the 1950 World Series, in which they both started.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Ford and DiMaggio were in the starting lineup 9 times.

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Yes, you are right (as I was sure you would be once I saw your correction): three in July of 1950, two that August, four in September makes nine for the regular season, and then one in the World Series. The Yankees won every one of those games, as they did all 13 games Ford started in that rookie year of his (12 regular season plus the World Series game).

Bix

9 years ago

Dimaggio, Campanella, Eckersley

Doug

9 years ago

This year’s tidbits. – Bill Nicholson was a man truly ahead of his time, with two seasons of 25+ home runs and strikeouts exceeding 3 times his home run total. That feat had previously been achieved only by Dolph Camilli with 5 such seasons. Today, 238 other players have done that at least twice. – Frankie Hayes, famous for catching every game of both the 1944 and 1945 seasons, was also the first teenager to catch 80 games in a season, a feat since matched only by Pudge Rodriguez. – Buddy Rosar is the only player with 200 games caught… Read more »

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Partial answer to the Mike Tresh question: Jason Kendall, 2001 (13 SB, 14 CS).

Partial answer to the Rusty Peters question: Michael Young had 400+ games at 2B, SS, and 3B.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

Both are right.

Three more players for the Tresh question, one more for the Peters question.

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Tresh question:

Tony Pena, 1986 (9 SB, 10 CS)

Benito Santiago, 1991 (8 SB, 10 CS)

Stumped on the last one.

I found the other player for the Peters question, but had to use some PI searches to find him, which feels like cheating to me, so I’ll not mention his name. Hint: he played before WWII.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

Hint for the last catcher for the Tresh question: the year before he did this, his manager and the remaining player for the Peters question were namesakes.

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

So, Tom Pagnozzi, 1991 (9 SB, 13 CS).

Which, combined with the hint @65, should make the other answer to the Peters question a lot easier to find.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Jimmy Wasdell – Felipe Alou had 400+ as a RF, CF, LF, and 1B. Some of us were just talking about this on Tango’s site last week, and he came up.

I’m going to hazard a guess on the Johnny Vander Meer question: Lefty Grove. If you say I’m wrong, then it means we’ve got to look earlier, since he did it in the AL in ’37, ’39, and ’41.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

There was someone earlier than Grove.

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Red Ruffing had 30+ starts and no relief appearances in 1936, ’37, ’38, and ’40. From 1936 to the end of his career he made 228 starts without any relief appearances.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

Ruffing it was.

I noted that Vander Meer was the first live ball era pitcher to do this in the NL. Who are the only pre-live ball era pitchers to do this since 1893?

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

@60: Noodles Hahn and Clark Griffith.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Additional tidbits: Joe DiMaggio, what can we say about him that hasn’t already been said? Well, I came up with a couple of factoids. He is the only player to have 45+ HR, 15+ 3B, 35+ 2B and 5+ HBP in the same season, 1937. Also in 1948 he became the only player to lead the league in TB, HR, RBI and HBP. Bill Nicholson, as reported in his SABR bio, received an IBB with the bases loaded in the second game of a DH with the Giants on 7-23-44. He hit 3 HR in the first game and another… Read more »

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

That Riddle brother battery was short-lived.

Bottom of the 9th, Reds Batting, Behind 2-5, Pirates' Elmer Riddle facing 1-2-3

Johnny Riddle replaces Max West (PH) playing C batting 8th

CIN     J. Wyrostek     E. Riddle       Home Run
CIN     F. Baumholtz    E. Riddle       Home Run

Kirby Higbe replaces Elmer Riddle pitching and batting 9th

The Reds, BTW, tied the game later in that inning and won it in the 14th when Ted Kluszewski hit a leadoff single and later scored.

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

RC @ 53 –

About Nicholson’s bases-loaded intentional walk –

IBB weren’t an official statistic until 1955, as you may well know. According to Baseball Almanac, there are 6 known instances of bases-loaded IBBs, 4 of which occurred prior to 1955; see the bottom of this page:

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/recbooks/rb_wk3.shtml

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Elmer Riddle – Rube Waddell, 1905 (12 in relief, 27 CG); Walter Johnson, 1913 (12 in relief, 29 CG); Ray Kremer, 1926 (11 in relief, 18 CG); Lefty Grove, 1930 (18 in relief, 22 CG); Lefty Grove, 1931 (11 in relief, 27 CG); Elmer Riddle (as mentioned), 1941 (11 in relief, 15 CG).

I didn’t check the last 15 years or so, because I don’t think anyone’s thrown 15 CG in that timeframe.

Did I get ’em all?

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Yes, Kremer and Grove are the two from the live ball era. The last pitcher with 15 CG to lead in any of those categories AND have any relief appearances was Ron Guidry in 1979. Mark Fidrych did so leading in two of those categories in 1976 (Fidrych’s first two appearances were from the pen). Probably the most recent pitchers to come close to doing this are Buzz Capra in 1974 (led in ERA and ERA+, 11 CG, 12 relief appearances) and Luis Tiant in 1972 (led in ERA and ERA+, 12 CG, 24(!) relief appearances). The most recent to… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Mickey Livingston question: Joel Skinner in 1997, Merv Shea in 1933 and Jorge Fabregas in 1997.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Correct. It was actually 1986 for Skinner.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Harry Brecheen question: Curt Davis in 1939 at age 35.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Correct.

Who are the only pitchers older than Breechen to win 20 in their first full season as a Cardinal?

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Kid Nichols and Pete Alexander.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Correct.

I would imagine some would be surprised to learn that either played for the Cardinals, much less won 20 games for them.

Hartvig

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

I was sure the answer to the question was Joaquin Andujar when I saw it but it turns out he was only 31…

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

So far for the second Brecheen question I found Marty Marion and Ray Pepper who played only for the Cards and Browns while they shared Sportsman’s Park.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

There’s one more.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

It could be a Bostonian, right? Was there a time when the A’s and Phils were sharing in Philly? And what about that weird little bit when the Mets and Yanks were sharing? That’s a thing that happened, right?

As a manual checker, this is NOT my kind of question. I’m just trying to throw out ideas to help people. Good luck!

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

The Phillies and As played at Shibe Park (later called Connie Mack Stadium) from 1938 to 1954. The Phillies stayed there until Veterans Stadium opened in 1970. The Braves played parts of 3 seasons (1913-15) at Fenway, but never played an entire season there. So, I would be inclined to regard anyone playing on those teams as having multiple home ballparks. The Yankees were at Shea in 1974-75, and at the Polo Grounds in 1912-22 (of course, the Mets were there too, in 1962-63). There were also the 1962-65 Angels playing at Dodger Stadium, and the 1969-72 Royals playing at… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

@92:
The Yankees played at the Polo Grounds from 1913-1922. And during the 1911 season the Giants used the Yankees’ Hilltop Park for some of their home games while the Polo Grounds was undergoing reconstruction due to a fire. The Red Sox played their Sunday home games at Braves Field for a few years during the early 1930s.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Remaining quiz answers. Buddy Rosar question: other catchers with 200 games for the As and Indians (Dave Duncan, Ray Fosse, Ron Hassey), Indians and Yankees (Joel Skinner), and Yankees and As (Wally Schang) Rusty Peters question: players with 400 games at SS and 3B (Michael Young, Buck Herzog) Harry Breechen question: other players with 300 game careers for multiple franchises in same home ballpark (Marty Marion, Ray Pepper, Verne Clemons) Ellis Kinder question: other pitcher with career ERA one run better as reliever than as starter (min. 500+ IP in each role) with overall career ERA under 3.50 (Bob L.… Read more »

Bix

9 years ago

Campanella, Dimaggio, Eckersley

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

PaWaa Here is Wins Above Average, expressed as a rate stat, by dividing it into Plate Appearances (PaWaa): 140.5 … (7673) Joe DiMaggio 166.4 … (7304) Lou Boudreau 176.2 … (6537) Joe Gordon 287.8 … (7712) M Minoso 306.7 … (4815) Roy Campanella 322.0 … (10400)Rob Alomar 336.0 … (6418) Bill Nicholson 350.0 … (9833) Harmon Killer 435.7 … (12504)Craig Biggio 474.8 … (12817)Steady Eddie ____________________ DiMaggio missed 3 years to the war. By very simply adding 600 PA and 4 WAA for each year to his totals, that would give him a career of 9473 PA 66.6 WAA 142.2… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Innings Pitched per Win Above Average

IpWaa:

80.3 …. (3256) Kevin Brown
81.2 …. (1908) Harry Breechen
94.3 …. (1480) Ellis Kinder

107.4 … (3286) Dennis Eckersley
109.3 … (3170) Whitey Ford
113.0 … (1186) Johnny Rigney

259.8 … (2104) Johnny Vander Meer

Bill Johnson

9 years ago

Killebrew, DiMaggio, and Harry Brecheen

Abbott

9 years ago

DiMaggio, Eckersley, Biggio

Paul E

9 years ago

Alomar, DiMaggio, Killebrew

Richard Chester

9 years ago

DiMaggio, Ford, Minoso

J.R.

9 years ago

DiMaggio, Ford, Gordon

no statistician but

9 years ago

I think there’s a case for Harry Brecheen being a lot better than his WAR shows. He spent four years in the upper minors pitching at approximately the same level every year, but he was 1) in the Cardinals’ overstocked farm system, competing for attention with Murray Dickson, Johnny Beazley, Ernie White, and Johnny Grodzicki, all four of whom had records similar to his; 2) stuck, behind one of the best pitching staffs in the majors. With a little different scenario, Brecheen could have had two or three years at the front end of his career to boost all his… Read more »

Mike G.

9 years ago

DiMaggio, Brown, and Eckersley

RonG

9 years ago

DiMaggio, Campanella, Minoso

David Horwich

9 years ago

Tally note: the ballots @ 35 and 95 have yet to be tallied.

MikeD

9 years ago

DiMag
Campy
Alomar

koma

9 years ago

Craig Biggio, Joe DiMaggio, Johnny Vander Meer

TJay

9 years ago

Joe D., Eck, Campy.

--bill

9 years ago

DiMaggio, Gordon, Boudreau

bells

9 years ago

Here’s the vote according to my statistical methodology. I take four measures of player value as a gauge of how players compare across advanced metrics that value things slightly differently. Then I give them a cumulative rank with all players on the ballot over 50 WAR, adding their ranking of each measure. Here are the measures: WAR – the ‘classic’ way of measuring a player’s value over a player the team could have gotten to replace the player, over that player’s career, to show how ‘good’ that player was. WAA+ – adding the wins above average players (rather than replacement)… Read more »

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Joe DiMaggio, Eddie Murray, and Roberto Alomar