SF/PGH: Linked By the Bonds of History

The Giants and Pirates franchises are among the oldest in the majors. One link they have is Barry Bonds, who accumulated 50.1 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, baseball-reference version) for the Bucs and 112.3 WAR for San Francisco. That 50.1 WAR is not the highest career WAR total accumulated for a team that was not the player’s highest-WAR team. Some bigger numbers are after the jump

Among everyday players, Tris Speaker and Eddie Collins accumulated even more WAR for their “second-best” teams than Bonds did. Baseball-reference’s WAR formula gives Speaker 74.2 WAR for the Indians and 55.4 WAR for the Red Sox. Collins tops even Speaker and Bonds in this respect, with 66.6 WAR for the White Sox and 57.3 WAR for the Athletics.

As for pitching WAR, one guy shoots well past all the everyday players in terms of WAR for a team that was not the team for whom he had his most WAR, while a couple of other pitchers had very high pitcher WAR numbers in this category but not up to level of the “second best franchise” WAR numbers of Collins, Speaker and Bonds. Cy Young had 81.6 WAR for Cleveland in the 19th century NL and then 66.2 WAR for Boston in the then-new American League. He’d have been a great pitcher even if he’d achieved only one of those. Lefty Grove had 65.2 WAR for the Athletics and 44.7 WAR for the Red Sox. Grover Cleveland Alexander (will there someday be a pitcher named Ronald Reagan Havermeyer or William Jefferson Clinton Smith?) had 60.3 WAR for the Phillies and 41.8 WAR for the Cubs.

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Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

Cool! That’s a really neat little thing I don’t think I’d have ever thought of researching. It makes me wonder about third franchises, and fourth, and fifth… ad infinitum (or should I say, “ad Mike Morgan?” That might be more accurate).

wx
wx
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Or “ad Matt Stairs”

My dad used to say that Matt Stairs had his dream job: come to the plate a few times a week, swing as hard as you can, and either hit a home run or strike out

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

The “winners” on the other end: Bill Bergen -10.9 .. Brooklyn -2.6 … Cincinnati Doug Flynn -4.0 … Flushing -2.3 … Montreal -1.8 … Arlington Dan Meyer -2.3 … Oakland -2.2 … Seattle -1.9 … Detroit Tuck Stainback -2.3 … Detroit -2.0 … Chicago -1.3 … Philadelphia (both Philly teams combined) Vic Harris -2.8 … Chicago -1.9 … Arlington Jackie Gutiérrez -3.5 … Boston -1.8 … Baltimore (in 153 PA) Billy Hitchcock … (The Spread the Stink Around award) -1.9 … DC -1.7 … Detroit -1.2 … St Louis -1.0 … Boston ________ Only one pitcher cracks -1.5 for two… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

There’s also pitcher Vic Frazier.
-1.9…White Sox
-1.7…Tigers

oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

It is the first day of open enrollment for Medicare.

Darien
9 years ago

As supportive as I am of calling them the “White Cox,” I must suspect that of being a typo. 😉

Grover Cleveland Alexander has one of those wonderful “combo names,” on a par with fellow pitcher Theodore Roosevelt Lilly. Still, my all-time favourite in this regard remains Babe Herman, who confused me rathet badly in my younger days.

RJ
RJ
9 years ago
Reply to  Darien

We may not have a ballplayer named after Ronald Reagan yet, as birtelcom points out in the post, but soccer superstar Cristiano Ronaldo is actually named after the former President, although it was Reagan’s acting that Cristiano’s father was a fan of.

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
9 years ago
Reply to  RJ

RJ, are you on board with the Yes, Yes, Yes speech?

Best of luck in the playoffs!

RJ
RJ
9 years ago
Reply to  Luis Gomez

Absolutely Luis! I’m enjoying it so far! We saw yesterday how these things can turn though, so I won’t get ahead of myself…

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Luis Gomez

As long as Pence doesn’t let anyone tombstone him on the ring steps.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
9 years ago

How’s about a “triple play” of HOF-type players with major success with THREE (or more) different teams?

To start with:
POSITION PLAYERS: Reggie Jackson, Alex Rodriguez, Carlos Beltran
PITCHERS: Pete Alexander, Gaylord Perry, Nolan Ryan, Roger Clemens

You’d probably need to set a minimum WAR for the third-lowest total, or this could get out of hand quickly…

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

I found two players with 20+ WAR for each of three teams, A-Rod and Adrian Beltre.

John Autin
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

For 3-team success, Darrell Evans springs to mind: 22.8 WAR for the Bravos, 21.3 for the Giants, 14.5 for the Tigers.

Michael Sullivan
Michael Sullivan
9 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

Clemens with 16.8 WAR for his fourth team (houston) will be tough to top. Only COGers need apply. Blyleven seemed like a good candidate (and he might be the #2 guy) but he only had 9.9 WAR with his fourth team (PGH). Carlton was almost done by the time he got to his third team. Ryan and Perry had around 16 WAR with their third teams and much less with their fourth. Ryan was still finding his groove with the mets and was barely average. perry had 2 solid years with the padres in his late career but that was… Read more »

Doug
Editor
9 years ago

Roberto Alomar comes close for 4 teams – at least 12.1 WAR for Toronto, San Diego, Cleveland and Baltimore.

A-Rod beats out Rocket for 3 teams, with 25.5 WAR for Texas.

Michael Sullivan
Michael Sullivan
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Interestig that Arod and Beltre both had 25.5 WAR for Texas, and played for Seattle.

I’m betting ARod is the guy for 3 teams. Limited number of players we need to check since it’s impossible to do better without 77 WAR.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago

Tonight is the first post-season tilt for these teams since the 1971 NLCS.

Barry’s father and godfather were both playing for the Giants who fell to the Bucs, despite the 40 year-old Mays raking at a .989 OPS clip on 4 hits (incl. 2 doubles and a homer) and 3 walks in 18 PA. Bobby Bonds had more modest totals of 2 singles and 2 walks in only 10 PA.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago

“Will there someday be a pitcher named Ronald Reagan Havermeyer or William Jefferson Clinton Smith?”

Don’t know, but there are three players named Chester Arthur (Crist, Emerson and Spencer). Maybe it’s a coincidence but all three were born during or shortly after their namesake’s term as president. Who knew old Chet was so esteemed by the people?

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Don’t forget Monty Franklin Pierce Stratton. Actually during the 19th and early years of the 20th century it was not uncommon to be named after a U.S. President. I know for sure that there are MLers named after Ulysses Grant and William McKinley.

donburgh
donburgh
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

How is it that Calvin Coolidge Julius Caesar Tuskahoma McLish has not been mentioned?

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago
Reply to  donburgh

Or that the future 40th President of the United States played the role of the best known ballplayer named after a President in a movie?

JasonZ
9 years ago
Reply to  JasonZ

I just realized the photo’s caption describes
Taft as a, “portly right-hander”.

Portly is underutilized today.

Politics perpetuates politically persuasive portly people in perpetuity.

bells
bells
9 years ago

Okay, here are some of Bonds’ other ‘second highest stats’, all with the Bucs:

G – 1010
R – 672
H – 984
2B – 220
HR – 176
RBI – 556
SB – 251
TB – 1804

I’m not a PI subscriber; anyone wanna throw out some names that beat those totals or come close? I’d imagine those mentioned in the original thread might be obvious candidates in some categories (Collins, Speaker), but I’m curious if other names come up.

Artie Z
Artie Z
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

McGwire has 220 HRs with the Cardinals. Palmeiro has 1071 hits, 223 HRs and 1958 TB with the Orioles. Manny has 237 2Bs, 236 HRs, 1086 hits, 2053 TB, and 804 RBI with the Indians. A-Rod has 150+ HRs with 3 teams. Jimmie Foxx has 222 HRs, 1988 TB, and 788 RBI with the Red Sox. Winfield, Frank Robinson, and Griffey Jr. have stats comparable to Bonds’ with the Padres, Orioles, and Reds, and Dawson has comparable power numbers in his Cubs years to Bonds’ Pirate years. I’m guessing that Manny has the record for most HRs with his second… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z

Closest I found to Collins and Speaker in hits was Frankie Frisch with 1303 hits with the Giants.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

Frisch also has 701 runs scored for his second best.

Artie Z
Artie Z
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

I thought Henderson would have the SB record, but his 326 with the Yankees falls short of both Eddie Collins (368 with the White Sox, only 5 less than his A’s total), as well as Arlie Latham’s 340 SBs with the Reds (367 with the Browns).

Amazingly (or not, given how many teams he played for), Henderson is also 3rd in highest number of SBs for his “best” team. He had 867 for the A’s, which trails the 869 that Cobb had with the Tigers and the 888 that Brock had with the Cardinals.

bells
bells
9 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z

whoa, yeah, I thought henderson would be a lock.

oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

Young Mr Griffey had 210 HR, 533 R, 904 H, 173 2B, 602 RBI, 17 SB, 1723 TB for Cincinnati (and more for Seattle).

ReliefMan
ReliefMan
9 years ago

With 5 ER in 5+ innings in this game, Edinson Volquez actually reduced his career playoff ERA by more than 9. It now sits at an impeccable 12.15.

John Autin
Editor
9 years ago

Some guy named Babe Ruth amassed 41 WAR for his “second-best” team … and 100 more than that for his “bestest.”