Circle of Greats 1886 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 105th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG). This round adds to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1886. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of 1886-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This new group of 1886-born candidates joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. As always, the one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EDT Tuesday, September 1st, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Sunday, August 30th.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1886 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1886 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The fifteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1886 birth-year players are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Pete Alexander (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Goose Goslin (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Gabby Hartnett (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Satchel Paige (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dick Allen (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Andre Dawson (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Shoeless Joe Jackson (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Hoyt Wilhelm (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1886, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Ty Cobb
Larry Gardner
Larry Doyle
Jack Graney
Home Run Baker
George Cutshaw
Dots Miller
Bill McKechnie
Del Gainer

Pitchers (born in 1886, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Rube Marquard
Joe Benz

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Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago

Poor Pete Alexander, man. That dude’s NEVER gonna get in, and he’s super qualified. Well, here’s my ballot:

Ty Cobb
Pete Alexander
Home Run Baker

I hope Kevin Brown keeps enough support to stay on the ballot. If not, I plan on voting for him in the redemption round. Personally, I think he should’ve been elected long ago, but I have always voted for the three players I see as most qualified, and I’m going to continue to do so now.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
8 years ago

Frank Baker was good for 41.9 WAR in his first 6 seasons. Then he sat out 1915 in a contract dispute. He came back and averaged 4.3 WAR for 4 seasons after than, then sat out 1920 to take care of his children after the death of his wife. _________________________ 1909-1914, WAR leaders: 53.5 … Collins 53.1 … Cobb 48.4 … Speaker 41.9 … Baker 35.6 … Wagner 32.2 … Joe Jackson 30.9 … Crawford __________________________ WAR leaders, less than 7000 PA (Baker had 6666) 62.8 … Baker 62.3 … Joe Jackson 61.5 … Jackie Robinson 61.1 … Utley*? 57.5… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

I was going to bring up Baker myself but your post is a great starting point. Up until WW2 Baker was viewed- along with maybe Jimmy Collins & Gardner- as the best third baseman to have ever played. Then batting averages dropped 20 or 30 points & suddenly Pie Traynor became the bench mark for 30 odd years until Mike Schmidt put an end to that nonsense. A few things about how I think we should look at Baker. First is that if you just look at how he did in WAR rankings each year is that this is an… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Baker’s 130 RBI in 1912 was the highest in the ML in the 20th century until Ruth broke it in 1920.

Brent
Brent
8 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

He also was the best hitter in the WS for the A’s for the 3 WS they won. His OPS was over 1.000 in all 3 of those series. That has to count for something too. At least a tiebreaker, I would think.

Andy
Andy
8 years ago

Paige
Cobb
Alexander

shard
shard
8 years ago

Votin’ early this time:

Ty Cobb – Pete Alexander – Richie Ashburn

JEV
JEV
8 years ago

Cobb, Alexander, Hartnett

brent
brent
8 years ago

Cobb, Alexander and HR Baker

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago

Alexander, Cobb, Jackson

mosc
mosc
8 years ago

Hartnett should not be on the bubble. He wasn’t on the bubble last round and he got 5 votes.

I will vote for Cobb and some combination of Hartnett, Paige, Nettles, and Dawson to keep them in as high a standing as I can. Alexander doesn’t need my support.

HR Baker can’t withstand the smallest of corrections for his era and live up to a guy like Nettles I’m sorry. Shoeless Joe I can respect some argument for but I’m not buying on Baker.

David Horwich
David Horwich
8 years ago
Reply to  mosc

Agreed, Hartnett should still be at 2 rounds of eligibility, he picked up an extra round in the 1893 election and has pulled 10%+ every election since then.

Andy
Andy
8 years ago

Ty Cobb, Pete Alexander, Shoeless Joe Jackson

Steve
Steve
8 years ago

Shoeless Joe Jackson; Ty Cobb; Hoyt Wilhelm

dr-remulak
dr-remulak
8 years ago

Baker, Nettles, Winfield.

no statistician but
no statistician but
8 years ago

Larry Doyle and Larry Gardner. Yeah, I know they fall short of COG level, but they were important players in their time, key players on two dynastic teams, with seven WS credits between them. Doyle won the second NL MVP ever awarded. Gardner, speaking of early noteworthy third basemen, swung the second big bat after Speaker’s on the 1912 and 1920 world champs. Later he was the baseball coach at his alma mater, Univ of Vermont, for twenty years or so and the athletic director there for the last ten. He corresponded with his old rival Ty Cobb up to… Read more »

KalineCountry
KalineCountry
8 years ago

Ty Cobb
Satchel Paige
Pete Alexander

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
8 years ago

Cobb, Alexander, Paige

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
8 years ago

Cobb, Jackson, Ashburn

T-Bone
T-Bone
8 years ago

Reuschel, D. Allen, Shoeless Joe.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
8 years ago

Is there any better offensive season than Cobb’s 1911?

He missed leading on OBP by .001 to Shoeless Joe.
His 8 homers were 2nd in the league to Baker’s 11.
Other than that he led in every category but walks (248 hits got in the way of that).

John Nacca
John Nacca
8 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Snuffy Stirnweiss in 1945.

My memory may be off, but I think he holds the record for most offensive categories led (tied actually)…..

PA…AB…R…H…TR…SB (also CS)…AVG…SLG…OBP…OPS+…TB

That makes 11, not counting stuff like WAR or defensive stats (or CS).

Musial in 1946 led in 12 if you count games played. If not, he had 11 as well in 1948.

Cobb in 1911 also led in 11 categories.

Snuffy Stirnweiss LOL……I know it was a war year, but talk about an outlier……

Brent
Brent
8 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Wagner 1908? Led in every category except runs (had 100 to Fred Tenney’s 101) and HR (had 10 to Tim Jordan’s 12), well and walks too (at 54 he was 10th in walks)

Aaron Greenberg
8 years ago
Reply to  Brent

Definitely Wagner in 1908. He didn’t just lead the league in everything — he led the majors in everything, and many categories by huge margins. Oh yeah, after missing spring training because he threatened to retire. Forgive me if I missed this elsewhere in the thread, but…. Position player WAR: Wagner 11.5, Tinker and Nap 7.9. Offensive WAR: 11.5; Cobb and Lobert 6.4. (!!!) BA: .354; Donlin .334 OBP: .415; Evers .402 SLG: .542; Cobb .475 (!!!) OPS: .957; Cobb .842 R: McIntyre, Crawford and Tenney did score more, but his 100 was five behind the lead and 1 behind… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Cobb himself in 1909: In spite of NOT leading in PA or BA, he won the Triple Crown plus led in R, SB, and hits. Oh yeah – and OBP, SLG, and OPS (obviously). Also TB. And OPS+ and WAR, if you’re into that kind of thing. Also, all of those (except for R) led MLB, not just the AL. So depending on what you mean by “best,” I think there’s an argument that 1911 isn’t even Cobb’s best season. But seriously… there’s no way it’s as good as Babe Ruth in 1920, 1921, 1923, 1926, and 1927. Or Barry… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

If 1911 isn’t his best season, then what? 1917? That seems like the only other possibility. The only year with a higher OWar. 1911, however, was his career highs in Runs Hits Doubles Triples RBI BA SLG OPS TB 2nd in SB 3rd in OBP 15th in BB _______________ Regarding Walks, CObb was usually good for 40-60 a year. In 1915, however, he had 118. T=Best OBP and SB that year. Any explanation for the free passes? Approach from Cobb or from the pitchers? He still had 208 hits that year. Most hits with 110+ Walks: 214 … Boggs 213… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
8 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Note that, for whatever reasons, 1911-12 were high-offense years (by dead ball standards), so it’s not surprising Cobb set career highs in various counting or rate stats in ’11.

MLB runs per game:

1907__3.52
1908__3.38
1909__3.54
1910__3.83
1911__4.51
1912__4.53
1913__4.04
1914__3.86
1915__3.81
1916__3.56

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

A cork centered ball was introduced in 1910 on a limited basis. Starting in 1911 it was used full-time.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
8 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

@40;

In 1915, the year that Cobb drew his anomalous career-high 118 walks, he set the single-season record for stolen bases (96). So, he might have been trying to reach base more to have more stolen base possibilities.

Stephen
Stephen
8 years ago

Cobb, Alexander, Goslin

brp
brp
8 years ago

VOTE:
Cobb
Wilhelm
Nettles

Brent
Brent
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#1 is 2007, with Granderson and Rollins.

Brent
Brent
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#2 is George Mullin in 1909, with 29 wins in the regular season and CG wins in Games 4 and 6 of the WS (also a CG loss in Game 1)

brent
brent
8 years ago
Reply to  Brent

My initial thought was Bob Gibson, but he only won 22 games in 1968.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#3 is Mark Grace with 107 R in 1999.

Brent
Brent
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I Think #7 is Nellie Fox.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#10 is Walt Dropo

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago

I just learned on Dropo’s B-R Bullpen page that he holds the record as the:

Fastest player in MLB history to reach 100 career RBI (95 games)

He may also be the poster boy for how advanced metrics could have saved a bunch of teams from making poor decisions.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

He is one of three players with a 140+ RBI season and to never have had another 100+ RBI. Tommy Davis and Jim Gentile are the other two.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Dropo’s 144 RBI in 1950 is the second highest for a rookie topped only by Ted Williams with 145 in 1939. I thought it would be interesting to compare their stats for their rookie years and muse upon what divergent paths their career paths took afterwards. In the chart below PF stands for Park Factor. I hope these columns come out OK.

Stat…………..Ted…………..Walt
PA…………….675…………….609
H………………185……………..180
2B……………..44………….……28
3B………………11…………………8
HR……………..31……………….34
R…………………131……………101
RBI……………..145……………144
BA……………….327…………..322
OBP……………..436………….378
OPS…………..1.045………….961
OPS+……………160………….134
oWAR………….6.5……………3.1
PF………………..108……………115

AL stats for 1939 and 1950
R/game = 5.21; BA = .279; OPS = .759
R/game = 5.04; BA = .271; OPS = .759

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago

Fascinating! A lot of similarities, but some significant differences. For example, the difference in home runs is minor… but the difference in doubles is not. And while there ARE park factor differences, the biggest difference is obvious, even if you didn’t put the stat up there: walks. In spite of a BA only 5 points higher, Williams boasts an OBP 58 point higher! Every other difference pretty much flows from that. Fascinating. There is one other HUGE difference: age. Williams’ rookie season was his age-20 season. Dropo’s was his age-27 season. Williams’ age-27 season, he slashed .342/.497/.667 (kinda dwarfs Dropo’s… Read more »

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
8 years ago

Sophomore slump: In late June 1951 Dropo was demoted to San Diego with a .251/.337/.368 slash line, 4 HR and 25 RBI in 193 PA. He returned in late July, and though his slash line for the final 205 PA actually dropped (.228/.288/.370—eccch), he did hit seven HR and drive in 33 during that period. Still, from 1950 to 1951 his OPS+ dropped from 134 to 76. By contrast, Williams in 1940 avoided the minors and took his OPS+ from 160 to 161. Dropo rebounded in 1952 to a 119 OPS+, which is not too shabby. Williams’ 1941 was a… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
8 years ago

Actually, in 1950 Dropo and Williams were teammates on one of the last, if not the last, teams to bat collectively over .300. It was the year Williams broke his shoulder in the All-Star game and missed about 65 games, so it’s interesting to look at his performance vs Dropo’s in light of Williams’ limited play: 416 PAs vs 609; 82 R vs 101; 24 doubles vs 28; 28 HR vs 34; 97 RBI vs 144; 82 BB vs 45; 1.099 OPS+ vs. .961. The team, incidentally, batted 20 points higher than any other in the league, scored 113 runs… Read more »

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
8 years ago

The 1950 Red Sox were the last team to hit .300 over the course of a full season (.302). Next-highest team season BA since 1950 was the 2000 Rockies, .294.

Doug
Doug
8 years ago

Those 1950 Red Sox had 4.9 BB/9 and 1.59 WHIP as a team. Still, they went 24-3 from Aug 15 to Sep 12 to close to within a game of the lead, but then cooled off to 5-8 and elimination.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago

In a 7 game streak form 6-2 to 6-8 the Red Sox scored a record (since 1901) 104 runs.

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
8 years ago

Not that anyone’s dying to know, but the 1894 Phillies scored 106 runs in the seven games from Aug. 14 to Aug. 20: against Louisville, a 13-7 loss and wins of 14-4, 17-3, and 29-4 (!); and against Cleveland, wins of 11-6, 16-1, and 12-6.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago

@116
Donaldson and Encarnacion also had 10+ HR with their 35+ RBI. Only Ruth and Gehrig have done that, June 1930 and July 1931.

Brent
Brent
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

How about George Burns, not the comedian, but the teens and twenties 1st baseman. 150 games played with the Red Sox, Tigers, A’s and Indians.

The only reason I had heard his name before is because in the A’s 10 run 7th inning in Game 4 of the 1929 WS, he made two of the three outs in the inning, as a pinch hitter for the pitcher.

brent
brent
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#6 seems like it should be Eric Chavez.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#8: I found Wally Pipp from 1921-1924. His streak was broken in 1925 when he was benched in favor of Lou Gehrig

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Is #5 Jose Reyes?

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

Reyes only OPS+’d at 125 or better once, and he didn’t have 10 triples that year. He was my first thought, too.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

I think Doug is looking for a player one such season, not five. In that case Reyes is the answer.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I realize now that I accidentally looked at Reyes’ HR column instead of the 3B column, and that’s what screwed me up. He was the first player I thought of. I totally should’ve gotten this one – but that’s what happens when you don’t take the time to read things thoroughly.

mosc
mosc
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

It’s a fairly common feat for outfielders. More than a dozen active guys there.

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Answer to #9 is Jeff King.

John Nacca
John Nacca
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#11 is Bart Johnson in 1971 with 153

John Nacca
John Nacca
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#4 is…….I think………..Richie Ashburn in 1960……338 SLG with 116 walks in 672 PA’s

brp
brp
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Rickey Henderson, 1998? He also did it in 1997 and almost did in 2000 depending on rounding (88 BB/519 PA, 16.95%).

Kirk
Kirk
8 years ago

Ty Cobb, Joe Jackson, Rick Reuschel

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago

For this first update, I’m putting those OFF the bubble with an asterisk, since just about everyone is ON the bubble. Here we go, through Kirk @28 (the 16th vote): 14 – Ty Cobb =============75% (12) 10 – Grover Cleveland Alexander* =============50% (8) 6 – Shoeless Joe Jackson =============25% (4) 3 – Home Run Baker, Satchel Paige* 2 – Richie Ashburn, Graig Nettles, Rick Reuschel, Hoyt Wilhelm =============10% (2); TOP NINE 1 – Dick Allen, Goose Goslin, Gabby Hartnett, Dave Winfield 0 – Kevin Brown, Andre Dawson, Dennis Eckersley, Luis Tiant Obviously, it’s too early to draw any conclusions from… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Goslin and Hartnett should have asterisks, too.

Chris C
Chris C
8 years ago

Cobb, Eck, Dick Allen

koma
koma
8 years ago

Satchel Paige, Dennis Eckersley, Shoeless Joe Jackson

Steven
Steven
8 years ago

Cobb. Alexander. Baker.

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
8 years ago

Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals:

Cobb 102.3
Alexander 77.9
Brown 43.3
Jackson 41.0
Reuschel 40.6
Tiant 37.5
Baker 37.0
Allen 35.8
Nettles 35.7
Dawson 35.4
Eckersley 34.6
Ashburn 33.9
Goslin 31.7
Winfield 31.1
Hartnett 30.3
Wilhelm 28.7
Gardner 19.3
Marquard 19.0
Paige 5.7

Cobb, Alexander, Brown

aweb
aweb
8 years ago

Brown
Alexander
Cobb

For the players in this era, does anyone know how baserunning runs are dealt with in terms of WAR when the CS numbers (among others) aren’t available? I know the success rates in the era were generally low (just above 60% in 1912, when the CS do exist) – are players compared to each other for baserunning, or to a hypothetical break even point? That is – if everyone is getting CS too much, is everyone penalized through baserunning runs?

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
8 years ago

Luis Tiant, Pete Alexander, Joe Jackson.

On a side note, I´d like to send all the best wishes and best of luck to the kids representing Team Mexico in the Little League World Series in Williamsport, Pennsylvania. They are from the Seguro Social Little League in my hometown Mexicali, Baja California. Si-Se-Puede!!!

Joseph
Joseph
8 years ago

cobb, alexander, nettles

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
8 years ago

Cobb, Alexander, and Shoeless Joe, though I don’t like leaving Satch off my ballot.

Darien
8 years ago

Cobb, Alexander, and Jackson — my first ballot in I don’t know HOW long with no relief pitchers on it!

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago

Update through 25 votes, Darien’s @64:

21 – Ty Cobb
=============75% (19)
17 – Grover Cleveland Alexander*
=============50% (13)
10 – Shoeless Joe Jackson
=============25% (7)
4 – Home Run Baker, Satchel Paige*
3 – Graig Nettles
=============10% (3)
2 – Dick Allen, Richie Ashburn, Kevin Brown, Dennis Eckersley, Rick Reuschel, Hoyt Wilhelm
=============TOP NINE
1 – Goose Goslin*, Gabby Hartnett*, Luis Tiant, Dave Winfield
0 – Andre Dawson

As a reminder, the * are for the folks OFF the bubble.

Artie Z
Artie Z
8 years ago

Cobb, Baker, and Dawson

mosc
mosc
8 years ago

Cobb, Dawson, Hartnett

Paul E
Paul E
8 years ago

Allen, Cobb, Winfield

oneblankspace
8 years ago

H. Wilhelm
(S.)J. Jackson
D.(R.) Allen

No objection to Mr. 4191 4189.

Doug
Doug
8 years ago

Nettles, Dawson, Hartnett

David Horwich
David Horwich
8 years ago

Baker, Hartnett, Nettles

David Horwich
David Horwich
8 years ago

Through 31 votes (#78):

24 – Cobb
17 – Alexander*
=============50% (16)
11 – Jackson
=============25% (8)
6 – Baker
5 – Nettles
4 – Allen, Hartnett*, Paige*
=============10% (4)
3 – Dawson, Wilhelm
=============TOP NINE
2 – Ashburn, Brown, Eckersley, Reuschel, Winfield
1 – Goslin*, Tiant

billh
billh
8 years ago

Winfield, Dawson, Allen

trusting that Alexander, Cobb and Jackson will get elected without me, or will hang around long enough for me to vote for them later.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
8 years ago

Vote:

Tyrus Cobb
Dennis Eckersley
Hoyt Wilhelm

robbs
robbs
8 years ago

cobb alexander goslin

Mark
Mark
8 years ago

Which year did the Red Sox do that 104 run outburst Richard Chester?

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Mark

1950, from 6-2 to 6-8. They scored 11, 11, 17, 12, 4, 20, and 29 runs, respectively, playing one game each day.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Mark

It occurred from 6-2 to 6-8 in 1950. Almost half of those runs, 49, came in two games against the Browns.

Dave Humbert
Dave Humbert
8 years ago

Brown, Tiant, Ashburn

MJ
MJ
8 years ago

Ty Cobb, Pete Alexander, Kevin Brown

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago

Cobb is close to a lock & even if by some miracle Alexander does beat him it’s not the end of the world. Jackson looks like a pretty safe bet to get off the bubble & Baker to move forward to the next round I have changed my thinking on Paige. No one denies that he was a great pitcher & many argue possibly the greatest ever. No one denies that his exclusion from Major League baseball was a gross injustice. No one denies that he deserves to be honored. But that wasn’t the job of the BBWAA, at least… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Nice post, Hartvig. I basically agree 100% with what you’ve said. It’s especially your sentence “And if we’re going to include Paige via that route then why not Josh Gibson and Oscar Charleston or Pop Lloyd or half a dozen others?” that gets me. If we were ranking the 120 best baseball players ever, I would put Satch in my top 20 certainly, probably top 15. But I just don’t think his election would match the spirit of this exercise. Perhaps it’s because the exercise was flawed from the start, and we should ALWAYS have been including Negro League players.… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Possibly we could have another poll ranking the 10 (or whatever number we choose) best Negro league players. I really don’t know if that’s something we could do justice to or not. I’ve read Peterson’s “Only The Ball Was White” and Buck O’Neill’s “I Was Right On Time” and I have Quincy Trouppe’s “20 Years Too Soon” on my bookshelves waiting to be read. I’ve read in multiple places almost countless comments and stories regarding Negro League players. Most of my “rankings” of Negro League players are fueled by Peterson and Bill James rankings in TNBJBHA. But I seriously doubt… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago

With votes now locked in, here’s a Monday morning update, through Hartvig @90, the 37th ballot cast:

28 – Ty Cobb
===========75% (28)
19 – Grover Cleveland Alexander*
===========50% (19)
11 – Shoeless Joe Jackson
===========25% (10)
6 – Home Run Baker
5 – Dick Allen, Gabby Hartnett*, Graig Nettles
4 – Kevin Brown, Andre Dawson, Satchel Paige*, Hoyt Wilhelm
===========10% (4); TOP NINE
3 – Richie Ashburn, Dennis Eckersley, Luis Tiant, Dave Winfield
2 – Goose Goslin*, Rick Reuschel

Josh
Josh
8 years ago

Ty Cobb, Pete Alexander, Frank Home Run Baker

Mike L
Mike L
8 years ago

I’m going with Hartvig’s reasoning on Satchel and his votes as well

Cobb, Hartnett, and Tiant.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
8 years ago

Cobb, Jackson, Winfield.