Circle of Greats 1885 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 106th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG). This round adds to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1885. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of 1885-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This new group of 1885-born candidates joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. As always, the one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EDT Thursday, September 10th, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Tuesday, September 8th.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1885 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1885 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The fifteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1886 birth-year players are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Pete Alexander (eligibility guaranteed for 6 rounds)
Goose Goslin (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Gabby Hartnett (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Shoeless Joe Jackson (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dick Allen (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Home Run Baker (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Andre Dawson (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Satchel Paige (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Hoyt Wilhelm (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1885, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Shano Collins
Ed Konetchy
Ivy Olson
Art Wilson
Art Fletcher
Buck Herzog
George Moriarty
Fred Luderus
Wilbur Good

Pitchers (born in 1885, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Slim Sallee
Pat Ragan
George McQuillan
Vean Gregg

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Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#7 Buck Herzog question: Michael Young

David P
David P
8 years ago

I’m surprised that Tony Phillips didn’t meet the Buck Herzog criteria. But he only played 294 games at short, even though it was his primary position in the minors and his first three years in the majors. But after those first three years, he barely played short even though Rfield shows that he did an adequate job (-2 Rfied).

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

9. Fred Luderus: Does Von Hayes qualify as a first baseman in 1986? 19 HRs, 98 RBI, .305/.379/.480 and a 133 OPS+.

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

3. Ivy Olson: The then young Julio Franco in 1983.

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

11. Wilbur Good: The slightly slimmer Sammy Sosa in 1993 (though he played a good bit of CF) and 1995 (when he played just RF).

bstar
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#1 Shano Collins question: Dave Philley

Philley, a journeyman who played for 8 different teams, had three years where he got MVP votes. Those years he was worth -0.4, 0.6, and 1.1 WAR respectively.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Philley holds the record for most consecutive pinch-hits with 9.

bstar
8 years ago

Pinch-hitting exploits were the first thing I checked in regards to why he got MVP support despite very pedestrian numbers, but most of Philley’s PH at-bats came after the years he got votes.

I’m guessing that he was seen as a team leader, good in the clubhouse, etc.

David P
David P
8 years ago

I don’t think that Philley’s MVP performance is hard to understand. It was about batting average. In both `53 and `55 he finished 9th in BA. And back in the dark ages, long before the time of Bill James, batting average was still one of the key indicators of talent and performance. Throw in the fact that there were only 8 teams and there simply weren’t many players to chose from. Look at the between year. In 1954, Jim Finigan finished 12th in the MVP voting, putting up a Philley type line: .302, 7 home runs, 51 RBIs, 57 runs… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago

Writers sometimes like to give a hometown player some recognition. They do sometimes form friendships.

David P
David P
8 years ago

Definitely Richard, though I’m guessing that’s a thing of the past. Now that votes are public and easily found on the internet, I assume voters are less likely to do that.

Brent
Brent
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Of course, the King of MVP votes that in modern days we just cannot understand (or we fail to grasp) is Rabbit Maranville. In 1913 (the year BEFORE the Miracle Braves), he finished 3rd, despite an OPS+ of 83. In 1914, he finished 2nd (OPS+ 85). Then he went several years without votes (despite the fact that his best offensive years were during that time, the only 3 years his OPS+ was above 100 was 1917, 1918 and 1919), but he finished 7th in 1924 (this despite an OPS+ of 86 and the fact that he was no longer playing… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Brent

The issue of Maranville’s MVP votes was discussed a few years ago either here or on the old BR blog. A commenter mentioned that he was quite chummy with a number of sportswriters.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Brent

There was no MVP award from 1915-1921. That explains Maranville’s lack of votes, I’d say.

Brent
Brent
8 years ago
Reply to  Brent

Dr. Doom at 46. Of course, that is the reason, I should have remembered. But that means that Maranville almost certainly would have received quite a few more votes in that 7 year period. Right now he is tied with Hal Newhousder for 83rd in career MVP shares at 2.13 shares. How much higher could he have been?

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
8 years ago
Reply to  Brent

1914 is actually quite understandable. By all accounts he was a really good (tremendous?) defensive player. While Rfield is undoubtedly sketchy for players in 1914, he is credited with 26 Rfield, which helps lead to his 5.0 WAR. 1914 was the year of the Miracle Braves. Maranville was the top position player by WAR (there were 2 better pitchers). Johnny Evers won and was a tick behind him at 4.9; Bill James finished 3rd, completing the Braves trio of top place finishers. Maranville, with his 5.0 WAR, was 3rd among position players. A few posts ago I wrote a little… Read more »

bstar
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#13 Vean Gregg question: Doc Gooden, who amassed 22.0 WAR over his first three seasons (23.2 WAR if you include his hitting).

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#5 Slim Sallee: Lee Meadows

Doug: For question #6 I have found only 2 other qualifying players with HBP equal to or greater than twice BB and neither of them are HOFers. Am I missing something?

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Ee-Yah! It’s Hughie Jennings.

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#2 Is it Jeff Bagwell?

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#4. Art Wilson question: Rollie Zeider.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

12. George McQuillan question: the most recent I can find is Wally Bunker, who won 19 games for the 1964 Orioles in his age-19 rookie season.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

8. George Moriarty – I’m going to go with Heinie Groh.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I thought maybe it would be Ken Reitz – but he managed 68 HR. Paul Schaal was really close, too, but he got to 57.

Ossie Bluege was the most recent I could find… and then I found Ken Oberkfell. 1602 G, 1046 at 3B, 29 HR. Ken Oberkfell MUST be the answer.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

I thought Enos Cabell might be close, but he had 60 HR’s. In the expansion era, there have been three players who played over 50% of their career at 1B, 3B, C or DH and had career SB greater than or equal to 3 * career HR (in a career of at least 1,000 games): Rod Carew (353 SB, 92 HR) Chone Figgins (341 SB, 35 HR) Enos Cabell (238 SB, 60 HR) But Carew and Figgins played a good amount of time at other positions. Cabell is really the odd one out, as he totaled only 19 defensive innings… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Looks like we need Holmes on the case.

brp
brp
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#4 is Dutch Zwilling.

First guess was Joe Tinker but he only played for Cubs + Whales in NL + FL.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

To finish it off question 10 answer is Joe Hatten.

JEV
JEV
8 years ago

Alexander, Hartnett, Jackson

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago

I think it’s finally time for the man called Grover.

Pete Alexander
Home Run Baker
Kevin Brown

mosc
mosc
8 years ago

Paige, Dawson, Nettles

Chris C
Chris C
8 years ago

Alexander, Eck, Allen

Andy
Andy
8 years ago

Pete Alexander, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Home Run Baker

MJ
MJ
8 years ago

Pete Alexander, Kevin Brown, Luis Tiant (I can’t believe Rick Reuschel is gone! I voted for him 31 times!).

PaulE
PaulE
8 years ago

Alexander,Allen,Jackson

PaulE
PaulE
8 years ago

Alexander, Allen, Winfield

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  PaulE

Are we to take this as a vote change? That’s what I’m doing, unless I hear otherwise.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
8 years ago

I’ll sick with Alexander and Paige, and vote for Baker too.

But I recognize that I’ve lost the argument on Paige to Hartvig’s reasoning – though I still believe Paige is a unique case, and not just one of many worthy Negro Leaguers – and if Paige seems ready to drop off, I’ll replace him with Goslin later on.

BryanM
BryanM
8 years ago

Alexander, Baker and Mr May

Dave Humbert
Dave Humbert
8 years ago

Doug,

Is this actually the 106th round? I think Cobb was our 105th inductee (both 1887 rounds say they are the 104th). Hope combo years are coming up soon – very slim pickings ahead…

David Horwich
David Horwich
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

Yes, this is round 106.

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I like that you have 1 open round at the end of the process but… 1971 will bring Pedro & Pudge Rodriguez- so I assume whoever doesn’t get in on the initial vote gets in on the open round. pre-1870 is Cy Young 1870 is where the problem starts. You have George Davis, who was one of the poster boys for players that the HOF had overlooked until he finally got in. JAWS & the Hall of Stats both have him at #4 at shortstop. I assume- barring any outstanding holdovers- he gets the nod. But that leaves Bill Dahlen,… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

I just wanted to add that I did the above pretty quickly and it’s entirely possible that someone may have been overlooked. If anyone can think of someone please weigh in. And I stumbled across something that I thought was pretty interesting. Amos Rusie is about 2 months older than Iron Man McGinnity. They both won 246 major league ballgames. And yet with the exception of a couple of ineffective appearances in 1901 Rusie’s career was effectively over before McGinnity won his first ML game. It just struck me as a little odd. And yes, I knew that Rusie held… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
8 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Hartvig: The Rusie/Mcginnity thing is really a study in contrasts: Rusie: in the bigs at 18, career done at age 27; McGinnity started late, showed no promise, left the minors for several years to run a tavern, and came back at age 27. From age 28 to age 37 he pitched in the bigs, then continued pitching in the minors through age 47 with two addition stints through age 54. Rusie was all about speed, walks and strikeouts, tremendous numbers of unearned runs. McGinnity was much more a ball-in-play pitcher, with far fewer unearned runs. Thunderbolt vs. Iron Man, irresistible… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
8 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Hartvig: The Rusie/Mcginnity thing is really a study in contrasts: Rusie: in the bigs at 18, career done at age 27; McGinnity started late, showed no promise, left the minors for several years to run a tavern, and came back at age 27. From age 28 to age 37 he pitched in the bigs, then continued pitching in the minors through age 47 with two addition stints through age 54. Rusie was all about speed, walks and strikeouts, tremendous numbers of unearned runs. McGinnity was much more a ball-in-play pitcher, with far fewer unearned runs. Thunderbolt vs. Iron Man, irresistible… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago

Plus, each won exactly 246 games. They pitched almost the exact same number of games (465 and 463). And, adding the two careers together, you get a lesser Cy Young.

Dave Humbert
Dave Humbert
8 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Good breakdown, looks like you covered the key newcomers. I agree Dahlen gets no real shot unless 3+ HOFers named for 2016. Your suggestion of combining 2 lesser years, then adding one at the end would give him a shot, and keep holdover hopes alive at the very end as well… Additionally, I would prefer 1872 and 1871 to be separate, to give Wallace/Clarke/McGinnity a second slot to try for (Wallace will not have a shot in 1873 with LaJoie carrying over from 1874 – Wagner will get 1874). This will also maintain holdover interest late, otherwise we have robo-elections… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

I think your suggestions for which seasons to combine and not to combine both make sense.

It still leaves a window for at least a couple of the current holdovers to have a shot at getting in while giving the earlier birth year guys the same opportunity.

When you get down to those final 8 or so spots I am still not positive on who I’m going to support for about half of them.

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

The more I look at this the more I think your suggestions are the best possible format.

I honestly don’t know at this moment if I’m going to vote for Dahlen, Wallace, McGinnity or any of the 1873 guys & earlier with the exceptions of Young & Davis.

But if we don’t do this only one of them has any realistic shot at getting in.

Plus any holdover who might miss out because of earlier consolidations will still have their shot in a head-to-head competition with them.

I really think that this is the fairest possible format.

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

I would consider leaving 76-77 combined as well and then adding another open round to the end. That would help resolve the Dahlen issue a bit and let the holdovers/non-first-tier newcomers go head to head. And just to be clear about the graph you posted- is the 121st round there only if the BBWAA select more than 1 in the upcoming election or is that where we would be if they select only 1 player? If it’s the former (only if they select more than 1) then I would say that ensuring we have that bonus round by combining a… Read more »

Dave Humbert
Dave Humbert
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

I think combining 84-83, 82-81, 79-78, and 77-76 with single elections for 1880 and 1875 through 1870 gives the fairest competition to all. This will make round 118 pre-1870 (which we know will be Young). Round 119 would be 1971 (let’s say that is Pedro). If the BBWAA adds no one in 2016, we stop there (highly unlikely, they should add Griffey and hopefully at least Piazza – this will give us rounds 120 and 121 as “open” rounds). Dahlen and Pudge will be fighting holdovers for those last spots. If the BBWAA picks 3 or more, more slots for… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

I second Dave Humbert’s plan!

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

I think that Dave H @ 94 has hit upon the fairest possible format.

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

BBWAA announced the new HOF class, or lack thereof, on:

6 Jan 2015
8 Jan 2014
(9 Jan 2013)
9 Jan 2012

So we don’t want to run out of elections before then.

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

Hadn’t thought about that. If they announce on the 9th that would mean that after this round we won’t know for sure if there are any more available for about 120 days. By my count if we use Dave’s format we would have 13 rounds to go- 4 years would be consolidated but 2 would be separated and I assume the redemption round would run concurrently to a regular election. I think most elections are like the current one that runs 9 days. Which should mean that even if we consolidate a couple more years we have 117 days until… Read more »

dr-remulak
dr-remulak
8 years ago

Alexander, Baker, Nettles.

Darien
8 years ago

Alexander, Jackson, and Eckersley

Kirk
Kirk
8 years ago

Pete Alexander, Home run Baker and Hoyt Wilhelm

brent
brent
8 years ago

Ol’ Pete, Home Run Baker and Goose Goslin

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago

Very early returns:

12 – Pete Alexander*
==========75% (10)
7 – Home Run Baker
==========50% (7)
==========25% (4)
3 – Shoeless Joe Jackson*
2 – Dick Allen, Kevin Brown, Dennis Eckersley, Graig Nettles, Satchel Paige, Dave Winfield
==========10% (2)
1 – Andre Dawson, Goose Goslin*, Gabby Hartnett*, Luis Tiant, Hoyt Wilhelm
0 – Richie Ashburn

Mo
Mo
8 years ago

Alexander, Baker, Ashburn

Having grown up in Philadelphia, I could not resist this vote, even though I was born after all three retired

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago

Alexander, Jackson, Baker

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
8 years ago

Alexander, Jackson, Ashburn

Stephen
Stephen
8 years ago

Alexander, Goslin, Ashburn

Shard
Shard
8 years ago

Pete Alexander – Richie Ashburn – Shoeless Joe Jackson

brp
brp
8 years ago

VOTE:
Ashburn
Nettles
Wilhelm

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago

If I’m not mistaken, Ashburn has gone from zero to all alone in 4th place in the voting in the span of 6 votes.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
8 years ago

Highest Pitching WAR, first season:

13.1 … Kid Nichols (1890)
11.4 … Billy Rhines (1890)

9.6 … Mark Fidrych
9.2 … Irv Young
9.1 … VEAN GREGG

8.8 … George Derby (1881)
8.8 … Reb Russell

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
8 years ago

Since 1900, lowest H/9 with at least 350 IP 5.89 … Ed Walsh 6.05 … Pete Alexander 6.32 … Jack Coombs 6.32 … Walter Johnson 6.37 … Walter Johnson 6.47 … Christy Mathewson 6.51 … Claude Hendrix 6.58 … GEORGE MCQUILLAN 6.65 … Ed Walsh __________________________ McQuillan’s 9.4 WAR as a rookie is noted by Doug above. However, he also had an effective cuppa coffee in his first year (41 IP). Highest WAR, First Season, less than 50 IP: 2.8 … Victor Cruz 2.2 … George McQuillan 2.2 … Buck O’Brien 2.2 … Doug Henry 2.0 … Ken Giles _________________________… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
8 years ago

Vote:

Dennis Eckersley
Joe Jackson
Hoyt Wilhelm

robbs
robbs
8 years ago

Alexander, Goslin, Paige

Steven
Steven
8 years ago

Alexander, Goslin, Hartnett.

opal611
opal611
8 years ago

For the 1885 election, I’m voting for:
-Andre Dawson
-Dennis Eckersley
-Dave Winfield

Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Brown
-Goslin
-Ashburn
-Nettles
-Allen
-Alexander
-Jackson
-Tiant
-Baker

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
8 years ago

Alexander, Nettles, Dawson

owen
owen
8 years ago

Satchel Paige, Pete Alexander, Joe Jackson

David Horwich
David Horwich
8 years ago

Here’s what I have, through 25 votes (#79):

21 – Alexander*
===============75% (19)
===============50% (13)
9 – Baker
8 – Jackson*
===============25% (7)
5 – Ashburn
4 – Eckersley, Goslin*, Nettles, Paige
3 – Dawson, Wilhelm, Winfield
===============10% (3)
2 – Allen, Brown, Hartnett*
1 – Tiant

Asterisks denote players not on the bubble.

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago

Baker, Hartnett, Tiant

Doug
Doug
8 years ago

Alexander, Nettles, Eckersley

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
8 years ago

G. Hartnett, D. Allen, L. Tiant

PP
PP
8 years ago

Alexander, Goslin, Baker

koma
koma
8 years ago

Pete Alexander, Dennis Eckersley, Satchel Paige

Steve
Steve
8 years ago

Shoeless Joe Jackson; Home Run Baker; Goose Goslin

Josh
Josh
8 years ago

Pete Alexander, Home Run Baker, Gabby Hartnett

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago

Update through Steve (@88, 31st vote):

24 – Pete Alexander*
===========75% (24)
===========50% (16)
12 – Home Run Baker
9 – Shoeless Joe Jackson*
===========25% (8)
6 – Dennis Eckersley, Goose Goslin*
5 – Richie Ashburn, Graig Nettles, Satchel Paige
4 – Gabby Hartnett*
===========10% (4); TOP NINE
3 – Dick Allen, Andre Dawson, Luis Tiant, Hoyt Wilhelm, Dave Winfield
2 – Kevin Brown

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
8 years ago

Best position player: Baker
Best pitcher: Alexander
Personal choice: Brown

BillH
BillH
8 years ago

Winfield, Dawson, Allen

with intent to vote for Alexander. Paige and Jackson in later rounds if they need my vote. Looks like they are doing ok without me this round.

David Horwich
David Horwich
8 years ago

Hartnett, Nettles, Tiant

Joseph
Joseph
8 years ago

Alexander, Goslin, Nettles

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
8 years ago

S.J. Jackson
Sh. Collins
H. Wilhelm

aweb
aweb
8 years ago

Alexander
Brown
HArtnett

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
8 years ago

Pete, Joe, ‘n’ Satch.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago

Through Mike HBC’s vote, the 39th, and with changes now closed, here’s your update (* on guys off the bubble): =============75% (30) 29 – Pete Alexander* =============50% (20) 14 – Home Run Baker 11 – Shoeless Joe Jackson* =============25% (10) 7 – Goose Goslin*, Gabby Hartnett*, Graig Nettles 6 – Dennis Eckersley, Satchel Paige 5 – Richie Ashburn 4 – Dick Allen, Kevin Brown, Andre Dawson, Luis Tiant, Hoyt Wilhelm, Dave Winfield =============10% (4) 1 – Shano Collins Everyone should be safe this round, with the exception of Collins, if they get one more vote. I can’t imagine it will… Read more »

bstar
8 years ago

Alexander, Dawson, Allen