23 thoughts on “Quiz: some of these guys are not like the others (solved)”

1. Dr. Doom April 25, 2016 at 5:51 pm

   I’m sure it’s there true outcomes related, because these are the all-time leaders.

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   1. Doug April 25, 2016 at 7:33 pm

      Actually it’s not TTO-related, or only very indirectly to one of the three.

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2. John April 25, 2016 at 9:51 pm

   Dunn, Kingman and Deer had prodigious strike out totals. Is it something connected with that?

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3. elkboy April 26, 2016 at 12:44 am

   Career slugging percentage more than double their career batting average?

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   1. brp April 26, 2016 at 10:18 am

      This seems like it would be close, I got 9 results on the PI (not subscriber so don’t know who they were).

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      1. Richard Chester April 26, 2016 at 11:26 am

         The 9 players are the 8 on Doug’s list plus Giancarlo Stanton who is still active. The answer is SLG > twice BA with 3000+ PA and inactive. The answer can be found without a PI subscription. Set the PI as follows:
         Combined Seasons
         SLG > 2*BA
         Active: No
         PA> 120
         Sort by By PA in ascending order

         The answer can also be determined by using Fangraphs plus Excel spreadsheets.

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4. Doug April 26, 2016 at 11:47 am

   I’ll give it to Elkboy.

   A simpler formulation is retired players with ISO greater than BA in 3000 PA career.

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5. Dr. Doom April 26, 2016 at 1:34 pm

   This is really interesting. I guess I was off base with my initial suggestion. However, it’s not that surprising that the high-TTO guys end up here. It will be really interesting to see if Ryan Howard gets here by the end of his career. Right now, he’s at a .261 BA and a .256 ISO. He spent much of his career with ISO>BA. It flipped in 2014 when he decided he didn’t have any power anymore. But still, I won’t be surprised if it flips back again before he retires.

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   1. Dr. Doom April 26, 2016 at 1:52 pm

      Mike Schmidt was also very close. As late as 1985, he had ISO>BA, and following his MVP season in 1986, they were both .268. Too many singles in 1987 buried him into a hole he couldn’t climb out of.

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      1. Lawrence Azrin April 27, 2016 at 3:57 pm

         Gorman Thomas and Harmon Killebrew are also very close:
         THOMAS: .223 ISO, .225 BA
         KILLEBREW: .253 ISO, .256 BA

         Babe Ruth is the only one of the nine above with a BA (way) over .300, of .342; Barry Bonds is close at a .298 BA. …Just another of the countless ways to reinforce Ruth’s unique greatness.

         Obviously, the lower the BA is, the less impressive this feat is; after Ruth/ Bonds/ Thome/ McGwire, I don’t think you’d call any of the five sluggers ‘great’ hitters. Still, quite fascinating – thanks, Doug!

         A somewhat related diversion would be who comes closest amongst pre-1920 (DBE/ 19th century players – my guess would be Gavvy Cravath. He’s not really close, though, with a .191 ISO and .287 BA.

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         1. Daniel Longmire April 27, 2016 at 7:03 pm

            This is why I’m of the opinion that the contemporary approach to hitting will inevitably have to change in the modern environment, with its focus on power pitching. So many hitters are still of the belief that the best way to challenge these flamethrowers is with harder swings and a more aggressive approach, and we see the results of that with ever-climbing K totals and shrinking walks (see Doug’s earlier post on this). Strikeouts create zero chances for runner advancement, and put no pressure on the defense, so the newer generation of hitters are quantifiably less effective at manufacturing runs.

            At some point, the run-scoring averages will start to get dragged down by this imbalance, because home runs likely won’t be able to increase by a margin that is significant enough to cover the rise in strikeouts, and lack of other offense. I’d like to see a stat along the lines of XBH/K, which would go a level beyond batting or slugging average to determine if a hitter was either three-dimensional, or a TTO type.

            The difference is quite striking if you compare Barry Bonds with a 0.936 XBH/K (1440/1539), with someone like Mark Reynolds (0.241 XBH/K; 448/1537). This is obviously an extreme apples-to-kumquats example; I merely used these two players because their strikeout totals are nearly identical.

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            1. no statistician but April 27, 2016 at 10:52 pm

               Daniel:

               I haven’t searched everywhere, but I’d guess J. Dimaggio would be at the top of the live ball era list in this new statistic of yours: 851/369 or 2.306 XBH/K.

               Some others:
               Yogi—728/414 or 1.758
               G. Brett—1119/906 or 1.235
               And—surprise
               A. Pujols—1195/990 or 1.177.

               The fact that Puhols has been able to be a slugger and still have reasonable K totals, even in his decline, says something in support of your premise.
            2. Richard Chester April 27, 2016 at 11:55 pm

               Here are the top 5 XBH/K ratios for players with 3000+ PA from 1920 and on.
               5.22 ….. Tris Speaker
               4.85 ….. Joe Sewell
               3.50 ….. Tommy Holmes
               3.44 ….. Stuffy McInnis
               3.28 ….. Sam Rice
               Holmes is the only one with all his PA after 1940.
            3. no statistician but April 28, 2016 at 9:43 am

               Richard:

               Is there anyone, though, with some career-long home run pop—Holmes’s 1945 season is an anomaly—who bests Dimaggio?

               Or a similar player later who bests Berra, Brett, or Pujols? I’m asking because you’ve got the skills and access to track this and I don’t.
            4. Richard Chester April 28, 2016 at 11:18 am

               Reply to post 14. Here are the top 10 for players with 300+ HR.

               2.39 ….. Joe DiMaggio
               1.98 ….. Stan Musial
               1.76 ….. Yogi Berra
               1.58 ….. Ted Williams
               1.54 ….. Johnny Mize
               1.51 ….. Lou Gehrig
               1.49 ….. Rogers Hornsby
               1.48 ….. Chuck Klein
               1.35 ….. Al Simmons
               1.23 ….. George Brett
            5. Kahuna Tuna April 28, 2016 at 12:23 pm

               According to the Play Index, only 40 players in major-league history with more than 100 plate appearances have compiled extra-base hits at more than twice the rate of strikeouts. The skill translates well enough into overall offensive effectiveness that 32 of these players got more than 3,000 career plate appearances. It really is an emblem of old-school baseball. The most recent of these players (Nellie Fox) retired in 1965. The full list:

               Mike Schemer (1945-1946), 115 PA, 5 XBH, 1 K, 5.000 ratio
               Joe Sewell (1920-1933), 8333 PA, 553 XBH, 114 K, 4.850 ratio
               Tommy Holmes (1942-1952), 5563 PA, 427 XBH, 122 K, 3.500 ratio
               Tom Jordan (1944-1948), 100 PA, 7 XBH, 2 K, 3.500 ratio
               Tris Speaker (1907-1928), 11995 PA, 1131 XBH, 394 K, 2.871 ratio
               Lave Cross (1887-1907), 9741 PA, 595 XBH, 217 K, 2.742 ratio
               Bob Wood (1898-1905), 1368 PA, 90 XBH, 33 K, 2.727 ratio
               Sam Dungan (1892-1901), 1686 PA, 100 XBH, 37 K, 2.703 ratio
               Lefty O’Doul (1919-1934), 3658 PA, 329 XBH, 122 K, 2.697 ratio
               Frankie Frisch (1919-1937), 10099 PA, 709 XBH, 272 K, 2.607 ratio
               Sam Rice (1915-1934), 10252 PA, 716 XBH, 275 K, 2.604 ratio
               Nap Lajoie (1896-1916), 10461 PA, 901 XBH, 347 K, 2.597 ratio
               Frank McCormick (1934-1948), 6206 PA, 488 XBH, 189 K, 2.582 ratio
               Bill Burgo (1943-1944), 174 PA, 10 XBH, 4 K, 2.500 ratio
               Homer Summa (1920-1930), 3313 PA, 218 XBH, 88 K, 2.477 ratio
               Lloyd Waner (1927-1945), 8334 PA, 426 XBH, 173 K, 2.462 ratio
               Charlie Gehringer (1924-1942), 10245 PA, 904 XBH, 372 K, 2.430 ratio
               Paul Waner (1926-1945), 10766 PA, 909 XBH, 376 K, 2.418 ratio
               Joe DiMaggio (1936-1951), 7673 PA, 881 XBH, 369 K, 2.388 ratio
               Mickey Cochrane (1925-1937), 6207 PA, 516 XBH, 217 K, 2.378 ratio
               Andy High (1922-1934), 4969 PA, 304 XBH, 130 K, 2.338 ratio
               Nellie Fox (1947-1965), 10351 PA, 502 XBH, 216 K, 2.324 ratio
               Dale Mitchell (1946-1956), 4358 PA, 271 XBH, 119 K, 2.277 ratio
               Edd Roush (1913-1931), 8148 PA, 589 XBH, 260 K, 2.265 ratio
               Shoeless Joe Jackson (1908-1920), 5695 PA, 529 XBH, 234 K, 2.261 ratio
               Irish Meusel (1914-1927), 5309 PA, 449 XBH, 199 K, 2.256 ratio
               Carey Selph (1929-1932), 494 PA, 29 XBH, 13 K, 2.231 ratio
               Heinie Manush (1923-1939), 8419 PA, 761 XBH, 345 K, 2.206 ratio
               Joe Munson (1925-1926), 157 PA, 11 XBH, 5 K, 2.200 ratio
               Jack Bolling (1939-1944), 368 PA, 30 XBH, 14 K, 2.143 ratio
               Billy Southworth (1913-1929), 4925 PA, 316 XBH, 148 K, 2.135 ratio
               Bill Dickey (1928-1946), 7065 PA, 617 XBH, 289 K, 2.135 ratio
               Pie Traynor (1920-1937), 8297 PA, 593 XBH, 278 K, 2.133 ratio
               George Sisler (1915-1930), 9012 PA, 691 XBH, 327 K, 2.113 ratio
               Zeke Bonura (1934-1940), 4029 PA, 380 XBH, 180 K, 2.111 ratio
               Rip Radcliff (1934-1943), 4436 PA, 297 XBH, 141 K, 2.106 ratio
               Arky Vaughan (1932-1948), 7722 PA, 580 XBH, 276 K, 2.101 ratio
               Charlie Hollocher (1918-1924), 3393 PA, 194 XBH, 94 K, 2.064 ratio
               Hugh Duffy (1888-1906), 7841 PA, 550 XBH, 268 K, 2.052 ratio
               Eddie Brown (1920-1928), 3126 PA, 219 XBH, 109 K, 2.009 ratio

               Since 1965, even single 100+-PA player seasons with XBH more than twice strikeouts have been rare: 29 in all, nine by Tony Gwynn, four each by Bill Buckner and Don Mattingly, three by George Brett, and one each by Gates Brown (1968), Jesús Alou (1970), Denny Doyle (1975), Dave Cash (1976), Pete Rose (1978), Bob Bailor (1984), Scott Bradley (1986), Barry Larkin (1988), and Alan Trammell (1992). Gwynn’s 2000 season (13 XBH and 4 K in 140 PA) is the most recent. Gwynn, Buckner, and Mattingly are the only players since 1966 with more than 100 career PA whose ratio of XBH to K exceeds 1.5.

               In his post 12, nsb notes that Albert Pújols has more extra-base hits than strikeouts (1165 to 990). Believe it or not, he is the only active player with more than 100 career PA whose XBH-to-strikeout ratio exceeds 1.0.
            6. Kahuna Tuna April 28, 2016 at 12:28 pm

               Following up on my long post, Denny Doyle in 1975 established a career high in extra-base hits (27) in a season when he had the fewest plate appearances of any season in his big-league career (353). I wonder how many other players have ever accomplished the same feat.
            7. Daniel Longmire April 29, 2016 at 1:23 am

               Wow, I didn’t expect this much of a response! Thanks for the research, everyone (esp. Kahuna’s exhaustive work). Pujols as the modern leader doesn’t surprise me too much, as he hasn’t exceeded 76 K since his rookie season. I’m actually shocked that Gwynn managed NINE 2+ XBH/K seasons, but Boggs could never muster a single one, considering his knack for doubles and puny strikeout totals.

               A small correction, NSB: Pujols actually has 1165 XBH, but the ratio you quote is correct, so I’m assuming there was a slip of the finger. :^)
         2. Doug April 28, 2016 at 12:58 pm

            Lawrence’s guess is correct.

            Gavvy Cravath does have the highest ISO to BA ratio (0.67) among players with 3000 PA from 1893 to 1919.

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            1. Lawrence Azrin April 28, 2016 at 1:52 pm

               Due to the vastly decreased frequency of HRs pre-1920, I should’ve set the ratio of ISO to BA much lower for predominantly pre-1920 players – perhaps 40%, or maybe even lower. Eyeballing some of the most prolific pre-1920 EXBH batters, even Cobb, Speaker, Wagner and Delahanty don’t get much over 40%.
            2. Doug Post authorApril 28, 2016 at 3:17 pm

               These players have the highest ISO to BA ratios for 1893 to 1919, all above 0.45.

               Rk	Player	ISO	BA	Ratio	PA	From	To	Tm
               1	Gavvy Cravath	.191	.287	.666	4588	1908	1919	BOS-WSH-CHW-PHI
               2	Ed Delahanty	.176	.373	.472	6186	1893	1903	PHI-WSH
               3	Buck Freeman	.168	.294	.571	4599	1898	1907	WHS-BSN-BOS
               4	Vic Saier	.146	.263	.555	3435	1911	1919	CHC-PIT
               5	Charlie Hickman	.145	.295	.492	4252	1897	1908	BSN-NYG-CLE-BOS-DET-WSH-CHW
               6	Sam Crawford	.143	.309	.463	10594	1899	1917	CIN-DET
               7	Sherry Magee	.136	.291	.467	8541	1904	1919	PHI-BSN-CIN
               8	Harry Davis	.131	.277	.473	7380	1895	1917	NYG-PIT-WHS-LOU-PHA-CLE
               9	Fred Luderus	.126	.278	.453	5375	1909	1919	CHC-PHI
               10	Frank Schulte	.125	.270	.463	7415	1904	1918	CHC-PIT-PHI-WSH
               11	Chief Wilson	.122	.269	.454	5038	1908	1916	PIT-STL
               12	Jake Stahl	.121	.261	.464	3845	1903	1913	BOS-WSH-NYY

               Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
               Generated 4/28/2016.
6. Doug April 28, 2016 at 1:39 pm

   Responding to Kahuna Tuna @17.

   Interesting question about establishing a career high in XBH in lowest PA season.

   I tweaked that question a bit to look only at 300 PA seasons since 1920, and only at players with at least 5 such seasons. Surprisingly (to me), I found 16 others like Doyle including one of the quiz players (Rob Deer). Here they are:
   
   Jim Leyritz actually had his career high in XBH in the following strike-shortened 1994 season, with 29 XBH in 293 PA. None of these players were like Doyle in having no seasons under 300 PA; the closest were Jack Burns and Rudy Law with just one season below 300 PA, in each case a campaign of just a handful of PA.

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7. Kahuna Tuna April 28, 2016 at 8:36 pm

   Denny Doyle—one of a kind: Only player since 1920 with five or more 300+-PA seasons to achieve his season high in XBH in the same season in which his 300+ plate appearances was his absolute career low. Just as I’d suspected. (-;þ Thanks, Doug.

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