Circle of Greats 1975 Balloting Part 2

This post is for voting and discussion in the 134th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This is the second of two rounds of balloting adding to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1975. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of 1975-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This second group of 1975-born candidates, comprising those with K-Z surnames, joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.

In addition to voting for COG election among players on the main ballot, there will be also be voting for elevation to the main ballot among players on the secondary ballot. For the main ballot election, voters must select three and only three eligible players, with the one player appearing on the most ballots cast in the round inducted into the Circle of Greats. For the secondary ballot election, voters may select up to three eligible players, with the one player appearing on the most ballots cast elevated to the main ballot for the next COG election round. In the case of ties, a runoff election round will be held for COG election, while a tie-breaking process will be followed to determine the secondary ballot winner.

Players who fail to win either ballot but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. One additional round of eligibility is earned by any player who appears on at least 10% of the ballots cast or, for the main ballot only, any player finishing in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances. Holdover candidates on the main ballot who exhaust their eligibility will drop to the secondary ballot for the next COG election round, as will first time main ballot candidates who attract one or more votes but do not earn additional main ballot eligibility. Secondary ballot candidates who exhaust their eligibility will drop from that ballot, but will become eligible for possible reinstatement in a future Redemption round election.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EST Thursday, February 20th, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EST Tuesday, February 18th.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1975 Part 2 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also in the spreadsheet is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1975 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players, for both the main and secondary ballots, from the lists below of eligible players. The current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1975 birth-year players are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:

MAIN BALLOT ELIGIBILITY SECONDARY BALLOT ELIGIBILITY
Dick Allen 8 rounds Willie Randolph 11 rounds
Bill Dahlen 8 rounds Todd Helton 10 rounds
Luis Tiant 7 rounds Stan Coveleski 4 rounds
Bobby Wallace 3 rounds Minnie Minoso 4 rounds
Ted Lyons 2 rounds Bobby Abreu 3 rounds
Graig Nettles 2 rounds Monte Irvin 3 rounds
Ted Simmons 2 rounds Ken Boyer 2 rounds
Don Sutton 2 rounds Don Drysdale this round ONLY
Richie Ashburn this round ONLY Tim Hudson this round ONLY
Andre Dawson this round ONLY Andy Pettitte this round ONLY
Vladimir Guerrero this round ONLY Reggie Smith this round ONLY
Rick Reuschel this round ONLY Billy Williams this round ONLY
Gary Sheffield this round ONLY    

Everyday Players (born in 1975, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR, K-Z surname):
Alex Rodriguez
David Ortiz
Mark Kotsay
Scott Rolen
Placido Polanco
Derrek Lee
Jose Molina
Marco Scutaro
Gabe Kapler
Julio Lugo
Chad Moeller
Fernando Tatis
Daryle Ward
Mike Lamb
Javier Valentin

Pitchers (born in 1975, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR, K-Z surname):
Jeff Suppan
Rodrigo Lopez
Damaso Marte
Eric Milton
B.J. Ryan
Jaret Wright
Esteban Yan
Scot Shields
Hiroki Kuroda

As is our custom with first time candidates, here is a factoid and related quiz question on each of the new players on the ballot.

  1. Alex Rodriguez is the only player with a career including 1000 games at both shortstop and third base. Which two players, like Rodriguez, recorded 1000+ shortstop games, all of them before their age 30 seasons? (Robin Yount, Joe Sewell)
  2. David Ortiz is the all-time leader in DH games with over 2000 in a career split between the Twins and Red Sox. Which other two players recorded 200 DH games for the Twins and for another franchise? (Paul Molitor, Chili Davis)
  3. Mark Kotsay played over 400 games for the Marlins, Padres and Athletics? Which other player played 400 games for two of those franchises? (Gene Tenace)
  4. Scott Rolen‘s 156 games played in 1997 led the Phillies, and all NL rookies. Who was the last Phillie rookie to do the same, while also compiling more walks than whiffs? (Dave Bancroft, 1915)
  5. Jeff Suppan’s 4.70 career ERA is the highest, by more than 0.25 runs, of any pitcher with 2500 IP. Which contemporary of Suppan has the highest career ERA of any pitcher with 3000 IP? (Livan Hernandez)
  6. Placido Polanco posted career highs in 2007 with a .341 BA and 200 hits. Before Polanco, who was the last second baseman to match or surpass those totals and not win a batting title? (Charlie Gehringer, 1936)
  7. Jose Molina posted two seasons catching 95+ games but recording fewer than 300 PA. Who is the only player with more such seasons? (J.C. Martin)
  8. Derrek Lee’s 331 career home runs are tied for the fewest among first basemen with 1000 runs, 1000 RBI and fewer than 2000 hits. Which player is Lee tied with? (Hank Greenberg)
  9. Marco Scutaro’s .500 BA in the 2012 NLCS is the highest by a second baseman in an LCS series (min. 20 PA). Which three players matched Scutaro’s BA playing second base in a World Series? (Joe Gordon 1941, Billy Martin 1953, Phil Garner 1979)
  10. Julio Lugo is one of 12 shortstops since 1901 with multiple seasons of 30 doubles and 30 stolen bases. Lugo posted those seasons for the D-Rays and Red Sox. Who is the only shortstop to post such seasons for three franchises? (Jose Reyes)
  11. Gabe Kapler is the only outfielder to play 300 games for the Rangers and Red Sox. Which player compiled a career including 300 games for the Rangers, Red Sox and Yankees? (Mike Stanley)
  12. Chad Moeller compiled -3.6 WAR over 1539 PA, the worst career ratio among catchers with 500 game careers. Which active player currently has the second worst WAR per PA ratio for such catchers? (Drew Butera)
  13. Rodrigo Lopez posted seasons leading each league in losses. Which other three pitchers did the same? (Tom Candiotti, Jerry Koosman, Emil John “Dutch” Leonard)
  14. B.J. Ryan recorded a 4.38 ERA in over 200 IP through age 27, but improved by 1.73 runs to a 2.65 ERA in more than 300 IP for the rest of his career. Which two pitchers recorded larger ERA improvements among relievers with 200+ IP in both of those career “halves”?
    (Jeremy Affeldt, Joe Beimel)
  15. Damaso Marte posted 6 consecutive seasons (2002-07) with 60 relief appearances and 120 ERA+, tied for the longest streak of such seasons by pitchers aged 32 or younger. Which pitcher shares that record with Marte? (Keith Foulke)
  16. Daryle Ward and his father, Gary, both hit for the cycle. Which other father/son duo did the same? (Craig/Cavan Biggio)
  17. Eric Milton is one of four pitchers with 1.5 HR/9 in a 1500 IP career. Which teammate of Milton’s has the highest HR/9 in a 2000 IP career?
    (Bronson Arroyo)
  18. Jaret Wright is the youngest pitcher to start two World Series games in his rookie season. Who is the only pitcher younger than Wright to start game 7 of a World Series? (Bret Saberhagen, 1985)
  19. Fernando Tatis stole 20 bases in 1999 while reaching triple digits in R, RBI and SO. Who was the first player to post such a season? (Bobby Bonds, 1971)
  20. Esteban Yan’s 4.76 career ERA as a reliever is the highest among expansion era pitchers with 500 relief IP. Which pre-expansion pitcher has the only higher career ERA in 500+ relief IP? (Dick Coffman)
  21. Scot Shields is one of 8 retired relief pitchers to compile a 500 IP career playing for only one franchise. Who is the only pre-expansion pitcher in that group? (Ace Adams)
  22. Mike Lamb is the only player with 300 games played for the Astros and Rangers. Lamb is one of 6 players to make his LCS debut with a PH home run in the 9th inning or later. Which player in that group had a walk-off shot for that LCS debut homer? (John Lowenstein, 1979 ALCS)
  23. Javier Valentin is the second Puerto Rican-born player (after Benito Santiago) to catch for the Reds. Which HoFer hails from the same home town as Valentin? (Ivan Rodriguez)
  24. Hiroki Kuroda pitched 600+ innings in both leagues in a career of less than 1400 IP. Which pitcher did the same and compiled fewer career IP than Kuroda? (Chris Young)
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Paul E
Paul E
9 months ago

#4: Guillermo Montanez ?

Doug
Doug
9 months ago
Reply to  Paul E

Not Willie. 67 BB/105 K in his rookie year, and more K than BB in every season of his career.

Jeff Harris
Jeff Harris
9 months ago

Main: Rodriguez, Rolen, Ortiz
Secondary: Williams, Abreu, Helton

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 months ago

3. This one I’m pretty sure on with no research. Gene Tenace played 400+ games with the Athletics and the Padres.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 months ago

2. Another gimme for at least half the answer – Paul Molitor definitely played over 200 games at DH for the Twins and Blue Jays. And the Brewers, too. Also, I note that Kuroda is a rare player to qualify under the over 20 WAR standard, since he did not play 10 MLB seasons. It’s also amazing to realize Jaret Wright was born the same year as Kuroda – one came up from the American minors at 21 (and became one of the youngest pitchers to start a WS agme), one came over from Japan at Age 33. They had… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 months ago

Teddy Higuera compiled 30.3 WAR without making it ten seasons in the Majors. I wonder if there are any other players who make it over 30 without having played 10 seasons.

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 months ago

The other answer for #2 is Chili Davis (Twins/Angels).

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 months ago

For another one I think I know off the top of my head, # 18 should be Bret Saberhagen. Man, I wish the BBWAA gave us a few more rounds this season, because this is a fun ballot. We’ve got a sure thing inner circle Top 3 at his position ever guy with PED taint. We’ve got a Gold Glove 3B who will have to prove he can clear the hurdles that Nettles and Boyer have been unable to do. And we’ve got Papi, who almost certainly misses CoG consideration on pure numbers, but his career story is so much… Read more »

Mike L
Mike L
9 months ago

David Ortiz is the anti-Rick Reushel. Lifetime BWAR of 55.3, good enough on Black and Grey Ink,. and HOF Monitor and Standards, several standout seasons, plus the WS. PED taint, but that doesn’t seem to move COG voters as much as it does the Writers.

Doug
Doug
9 months ago
Reply to  Mike L

Probably the PED taint is diminished because his mid-30s career resurrection came about by slimming down, rather than bulking up.

Mike L
Mike L
9 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Could be. He’s the unicorn, the one MLB has always defended on PED use. Others; (like A-Rod doing analysis) they have tolerated, but with Ortiz they have gone farther, but without any explanation. It either speaks to non-public information, or a business judgment that he’s a very popular figure and it’s good for the bottom line.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 months ago
Reply to  Mike L

A couple other ways in which they’re opposites: one a hitter, one a pitcher; one played the bulk of his career in a park that benefited his skills (Ortiz in Fenway), the other in a park that detracted from them (Reuschel in Wrigley); one played for successful teams, the other for unsuccessful teams; one was a legendary postseason performer, the other entirely forgettable (and pretty awful); one is American and one is not; one is White and one is not; one played primarily (all but one half-season) in the National League, one entirely in the American. It would be hard… Read more »

Doug
Doug
9 months ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Thanks DD,

Really enjoyed reading that. Love your heuristic metrics; fun, easy to calculate, and remarkably revealing.

Mike L
Mike L
9 months ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

OK, without beating this one to death, people are using WAR as a short hand device to calculate value, across positions, and across eras. That’s all I was trying to do in matching Reuschel to Ortiz. Yes, they have divergent features, but WAR is suppose to smooth out those divergent features. Through ridicule, you’ve partially made my point. Second, an ERA differential between his decades is misleading. Yes, he had a 3:26 in his 40s, but that was over a total of 306 IP. Between his 20s and 30s, a difference of .03, which is almost no difference at all–three… Read more »

Paul E
Paul E
9 months ago
Reply to  Mike L

Mike L
….couldn’t help but notice your accidental Dick Morris reference. Wasn’t he, at one time, a political supporter of DeWitt Clinton?

Mike L
Mike L
9 months ago
Reply to  Paul E

Darn, I meant to edit that and got distracted by a phone call. DeWitt and I go way back–worked on the development of the Erie Canal.

Tom Ra
Tom Ra
9 months ago
Reply to  Mike L

Reuschel was 3-12, 4.47, 1.47 in Dodger Stadium against the Dodgers, who were consistently among the best teams in the league during his tenure. Those numbers would undoubtedly change if he pitched FOR the Dodgers against the 1970s Padres, Expos, Giants, Mets, Cubs…

Mike L
Mike L
9 months ago
Reply to  Tom Ra

Of course, but, for the purposes of argument, let’s multiply that over nine innings and express a seasonal total, of 724 earned runs per season. Reuschel pitched from 1972 to 1991. Eliminate 1981 as a strike shortened year. The Dodgers scored less than (often significantly less than that) in 13 of those years. If you added in unearned runs, there was not a single season in which Reuschel pitched better than average. Not only was he not particularly good empirically against the Dodgers, he was somewhat worse than average. If we adopt part of Doom’s analysis and goose his stats… Read more »

Doug
Doug
9 months ago
Reply to  Mike L

I wouldn’t put a lot of importance on Reuschel’s record in Dodger Stadium indicating he wouldn’t have been successful there as a Dodger. Ditto for any established pitcher and any park when going from a bad club to a good one; the pitcher will likely be better. or much better, in that park pitching for the home side instead of as a visitor. In the particular case of Rueschel and Dodger Stadium for 1972-91, Dodgers were incredibly dominant at home for those seasons, above .600 nine time, above .500 nine more, and just one game under .500 for the last… Read more »

Mike L
Mike L
9 months ago
Reply to  Doug

I’ll start where you finished. I certainly wouldn’t argue with Doom that Reuschel would have had gaudier stats and a better HoF chance if he had been on better teams. But since Doom ran part of an analysis assuming Reuschel as if he were a Dodger, I thought I’d test that with some actual performance. He was not a good pitcher in Dodger Stadium, for whatever reason, and it wasn’t because he couldn’t pitch against the Dodgers–he was good against them at when he was pitching at home. To me, this is illustrative of an occasional problem with some advanced… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 months ago
Reply to  Mike L

Internet’s been down for a couple of days in my town, so I haven’t yet had the chance to reply. Frustrating. Anyway, Mike, I’m not sure why you think I was ridiculing – I really didn’t intend that. I just really appreciated your comparison of the two players. It honestly would be hard to think of two other players who live on the outskirts of the HOF/COG with more different features to their candidacies. Not trying to ridicule, just add to the discussion. As to the other points in your post, I agree that the ERA figures are misleading. But,… Read more »

Mike L
Mike L
9 months ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

I think you are right, we are playing different games with different rules. I’ve been lurking around this site (and it’s predecessor) for close to ten years, and i’ll say again that I’m not a math guy and defer to everyone else here on that point. And I don’t disagree that if Reuschel had played on a better team, got a couple of rings, etc. that he would likely be a stronger candidate. I use the word “likely” for a reason. In every population there are those who are outliers, for whatever reason. WAR may be a terrific way of… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 months ago

1. Robin Yount is surely one of them.

6. Is there a more recent one than Charlie Gehringer? I thought of Red Schoendienst, but he missed by 7 hits.

Doug
Doug
9 months ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Gehringer is the one.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 months ago

Q22: John Lowenstein in game 1 of the 1979 ALCS.

Paul E
Paul E
9 months ago

#19 Bobby Bonds.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 months ago
Reply to  Paul E

At this point, if it’s something about steals and strikeouts, he’s the default first guess.

Paul E
Paul E
9 months ago

Struck out at an unprecedented rate but, if you batted him 3rd (or leadoff), a pretty good RF’er to have on your side

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 months ago

21. Is it the ironically-named (for a relief pitcher, anyway) Ace Adams? I feel extraordinarily luck to have found him, but I’m pretty sure he’s it.

Doug
Doug
9 months ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Adams is the one. According to his SABR bio, his 70 games played in 1943 was then the record for pitchers, as was his four straight seasons with 60 games, doubling the previous long season streak. His ML career ended in 1946 when he jumped to the Mexican League, but he played only one season there. His son, grandson, and great, great-great, and great-great-great grandsons are all named Ace.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 months ago
Reply to  Doug

To be clear to other non-PI folks, I found this by looking at save leaders from the pre-saves-existing era. Adams led his league twice, so I clicked on him, saw his IP, subtracted out the ~40 IP he had as a starter, and saw he was the guy.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 months ago

23. I have to say that, obviously, Jose Valentin is the answer. But even as an unapologetic Brewers fan, that’s a bit too far. (Apparently, Jose Valentin’s son played in the majors in 2018. Who knew?)
The correct answer is Ivan Rodriguez.
The other significant player is Carlos Beltran. As for his HOF chances… we’ll see.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 months ago

So, not ready for a full ballot yet, but I’ve voted for Nettles a lot. I still might vote for him. But I do believe Scott Rolen is the superior of Nettles. Some quick #’s: Rolen vs. Nettles Rolen’s G / PA: 2038 / 8518 Nettles’s G / PA: 2700 / 10228 Rolen’s bWAR: 70.2 Rolen’s fWAR: 69.9 Rolen’s gWAR: 67.3 Rolen’s Win Shares: 307.2 Nettles’s bWAR: 68 Nettles’s fWAR: 65.7 Nettles’s gWAR: 70.9 Nettles’s Win Shares: 318.7 So you have incredibly similar career value, except Rolen did it in a much shorter career. Nettles may be better defensively, but… Read more »

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 months ago

#9–one of them is Billy Martin 1953

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 months ago
Reply to  Gary Bateman

Joe Gordon in 1941 should be another.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 months ago

And Phil Garner in 1979.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 months ago

Q7: Buck Martinez

Doug
Doug
9 months ago

Not Martinez (check the wording of the question closely).

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 months ago
Reply to  Doug

How about J. C. Martin

Bruce Gilbert
Bruce Gilbert
9 months ago

Main: A-Rod, Bill Dahlen, Don Sutton
Secondary: Minnie Minoso, Billy Williams, Andy Pettitte

Paul E
Paul E
9 months ago

#1 Arky Vaughan ?

Doug
Doug
9 months ago
Reply to  Paul E

Richard got it , below. It’s Joe Sewell.

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 months ago

#8-Hank Greenberg?

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 months ago

Q1: I’ll try Joe Sewell for the other player.

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 months ago

Main: A. Rodriguez, B. Dahlen, R. Ashburn
Secondary: M. Minoso, K. Boyer, B. Williams

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 months ago

Q11: Mike Stanley

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 months ago

Q24: Chris Young

opal611
opal611
9 months ago

For the 1975 Part 2 election, I’m voting for:

-Alex Rodriguez
-Don Sutton
-Andre Dawson

Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Guerrero
-Rolen
-Reuschel
-Tiant
-Ashburn
-Nettles
-Allen
-Wallace
-Dahlen
-Lyons
-Sheffield

Thanks!

opal611
opal611
9 months ago

For the Secondary Ballot, I’m voting for:
-Willie Randolph
-Andy Pettitte
-Tim Hudson

Thanks!

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 months ago

Q 16: Craig and Cavan Biggio. (Also grandfather/grandson combo Gus/David Bell.)

Voomo
Voomo
9 months ago

Secondary:

Bobby Abreu
Stan Coveleski
Willie Randolph

Voomo
Voomo
9 months ago

Vote:

Richie Ashburn
Ted Lyons
Ted Simmons

Chris C
Chris C
9 months ago

Main Ballot: ARod, Ortiz, Sheffield
Secondary: Minoso, Randolph, Helton

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 months ago

17. Looks like Aaron Harang.

Doug
Doug
9 months ago

Not Aaron (he ranks 14th in HR/9 for 2000 IP pitchers).

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Okay, this was a total brainfart – I had considered Harang but saw his was definitely too low to be the one. I then searched for the right answer, which is Bronson Arroyo, and I should have typed Bronson Arroyo, but I didn’t.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 months ago

Main Ballot: A-Rod (all warts included, still the best player on this ballot and one of the best ever), Rolen (I’ve voted a lot for Nettles – Rolen is better), Dahlen (I want to give a pitcher a vote, I do…but I have been behind Dahlen for a while now)
Secondary: Irvin (deserves more consideration for a split career), Coveleski (I believe he was dismissed too quickly his first run through), Boyer (I’ve put a lot of support behind Nettles, and now Rolen – I don’t think Boyer is that far behind them)

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 months ago

Early Ballot Update: Through 7 Ballots Cast (Jeff Harris, CC, Voomo, Bruce Gilbert, Gary Bateman, opal611, Chris C) Main: 6 – A-Rod —50% cut-off— 3 – Dahlen 2 – Papi, Rolen, Ashburn, Sutton —25% cut-off— 1 – Sheffield, Lyons, Simmons, Dawson —10% cut-off— 0 – Vlad, Reuschel, Nettles, Allen, Tiant, Wallace Secondary: —50% cut-off— 3 – Randolph, Minoso, Williams 2 – Abreu, Boyer, Coveleski, Helton, Pettitte —25% cut-off— 1 – Irvin, Hudson —10% cut-off— 0 – Drysdale, Smith Main ballot is obviously just going to be a race for eligibility rounds – A-Rod should cruise to the CoG. Secondary is… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 months ago

I have the same at this point.

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 months ago

One of the pitchers for #13 is Jerry Koosman.

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 months ago
Reply to  Gary Bateman

And the other two are Tom Candiotti and Dutch Leonard.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 months ago

Q20: Chad Kimsey

Doug
Doug
9 months ago

Not Kimsey. Looking for pitchers with 500 IP in relief.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 months ago
Reply to  Doug

How about Dick Coffman, 4.765 ERA to Yan’s 4.761.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 months ago

5. This one is Livan Hernandez, just edging out Tim Wakefield.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 months ago

10. Not sure why it took so long to think of him as the obvious answer, but it’s Jose Reyes.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 months ago

Also, not that it’s a big deal, but I just did the P-I search for this and I only see 11 players – Vizquel, Wagner, Lugo, Reyes, Rollins, Hanley, Furcal, Renteria, Ozzie, Larkin and Alcides. Who’s the 12th?

Doug
Doug
9 months ago

The 12th is Jonathan Villar.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Ah, I see the issue. One of those seasons was 2019, where he actually played more 2B than SS – but for his career, he has still played the majority of his games as a SS.

Doug
Doug
9 months ago

Actually, it’s not about his career games; Villar still played 97 games at SS in 2019, well over half, so that was the criterion used for selection. His game logs show:
– 62 games only at 2B
– 48 games only at SS
– 48 games at both positions
– 1 game as PR and 2B
– 1 game as PH and SS

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 months ago

Main Ballot:
Alex Rodriguez
Scott Rolen
Don Sutton

A-Rod and Scott Rolen are too good for me to ignore. I need one holdover… and Sutton is the best, in my opinion.

Secondary Ballot:
Don Drysdale
Todd Helton
Ken Boyer

With Sheffield off the list, I get to include Ken Boyer this time, which I regretted last time. So there we go.

I don’t have much else to add this round. Maybe I’ll be up to adding more next time ’round.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 months ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

The scary part is that we may have no new CoG rounds next year due to the BBWAA – but if we do get some, it’ll be all holdovers, since there’s nobody with a case among the 1976 births.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 months ago

Last year or two years ago, I wrote a post on this site (which I’m not going to look for; far to many threads on which one might find it), in which I speculated about this very thing, knowing that the 1976 was a rather bare one in COG terms (no offense to the Lance Berkman fans out there). Looking ahead, that REALLY might not be a bad thing, because 1977 is a pretty decent year (Carlos Beltran, Andruw Jones, Roy Halladay), 1978 has at least one candidate (Chase Utley – also, Jimmy Rollins and Cliff Lee; I had no… Read more »

JEV
JEV
9 months ago

Primary: Rodriguez, Simmons, Sheffield
Secondary: Abreu, Coveleski, Drysdale

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 months ago
Reply to  JEV

This vote I believe gives us a 7-way tie for the lead on the secondary ballot – so at least that one should be a dogfight, since the main ballot is a foregone conclusion.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 months ago

Had the next two ballots been Hudson-Irvin-Drysdale and Hudson-Irvin-Pettitte, we could’ve had ourselves a nice 11-way tie. Alas, twas not to be.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 months ago

12. Another obvious one that I just didn’t really think about much, but he was my first guess – it’s Jeff Mathis. He actually had positive career WAR, until last season where he was even more miserable at the plate than usual but still got 244 PA’s, the most he’d gotten since 2013.

Paul E
Paul E
9 months ago

FWIW, in trying to decide Billy Williams “versus” Todd Helton, here are Williams’ best 10 consecutive seasons in the context of the 2001 Colorado Rockies Year Age G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB BB SO HBPSF BA OBP SLG OPS RC Gact 1963 25 161 744 654 123 217 45 11 31 135 8 84 78 2 3 .332 .408 .577 .985 154 161 1964 26 162 767 689 138 245 47 2 40 135 12 73 84 2 3 .356 .417 .605 1.022 174 162 1965 27 163 774 686 159 247 48 7 42… Read more »

Paul E
Paul E
9 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Yes; the numbers always add up in Colorado and, certainly for a guy like Williams who played every day and averaged about 160 G over the period from 1963 -1972

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 months ago
Reply to  Paul E

Williams played in 1614 games in a 10 year period from 1962-1971. Only Cal Ripken has more.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 months ago

Also Williams’ 8 consecutive seasons of 160+ games is second only to Ripken.

Voomo
Voomo
9 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Right. But put Babe’s numbers on the 200o Rockies and you get 1801 RBI.

Voomo
Voomo
9 months ago
Reply to  Voomo

Ruth’s whole career in 2000 Denver credits him with 901 HR and 3112 RBI

Paul E
Paul E
9 months ago

Allen, Guerrero, Simmons
Abreu, Coveleski, Billy Williams

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 months ago

Q14: One is Jeremy Affeldt (1.75 ERA improvement).

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 months ago

Main:
Allen
Guerrero
A-Rod

Secondary:
Williams
Minoso
Coveleski

Andy
Andy
9 months ago

Main ballot: A-Rod, Rolen, Dahlen
Secondary ballot: Coveleski, Boyer, Helton

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 months ago

Is the other answer for #2 Chili Davis?

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 months ago

Is #15 Keith Foulke?

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 months ago

Oops, looks like I got beaten to Chili Davis by quite a bit. So I’ll give another one – #15 is Keith Foulke. That six year peak was quite something – almost 20 WAR, a 195 ERA+, was on the mound when the Curse of the Bambino ended. The wheels fell off very quickly after 2004, though.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 months ago

Updated Through 12 Ballots Cast (Jeff Harris, CC, Voomo, Bruce Gilbert, Gary Bateman, opal611, Chris C, Dr. Doom, JEV, Paul E, Richard Chester, Andy)

Main:

10 – A-Rod
—50% cut-off—
4 – Dahlen, Rolen
3 – Sutton, Simmons
—25% cut-off—
2 – Papi, Ashburn, Allen, Sheffield, Vlad
—10% cut-off—
1 – Lyons, Dawson
0 – Reuschel, Nettles, Tiant, Wallace

Secondary:

6 – Coveleski
—50% cut-off—
5 – Williams
4 – Boyer, Abreu, Helton, Minoso
3 – Randolph
—25% cut-off—
2 – Pettitte, Drysdale
—10% cut-off—
1 – Irvin, Hudson
0 – Smith

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 months ago

My count matches yours.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 months ago

4. This seems like too long ago, but was it Dave Bancroft in 1915?

Doug
Doug
9 months ago

Yup. Either Bancroft or Johnny Wyrostek in 1946.

Wyrostek’s 1946 season is counted as a rookie season in P-I, but not on his B-R page. I’m inclined to side with his B-R page which says 1943 was his rookie season, in which he logged only 83 PA, but appeared in 51 games AND did not play in the minors at all. Lost 25 games to injury, but otherwise it would seem that he just rode the bench all season, which would exhaust his rookie eligibility even if he doesn’t play.

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 months ago

Would the other pitcher for #14 be Jim Brewer?

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 months ago
Reply to  Doug

If the 200 IP requirement includes IP as a starter then it’s Joe Beimel. I found Brewer as 4th on the list.

Doug
Doug
9 months ago

It is Beimel, who improved his ERA from 5.24 through age 27 to 3.32 after age 27.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 months ago

Ah, I see what I did wrong with #12. Again, I set the minimum to 500 games at catcher, not 500 games total with a majority of games at catcher. It’s Drew Butera.

Josh Davis
Josh Davis
9 months ago

I’m debating the merits of Guerrero and Sheffield — both outfielders and somewhat contemporaries. WAR gives Sheffield a so slight as to be insignificant advantage (60.3 – 59.4). But I’m having a hard time seeing how he gets in before Guerrero. Using some quick and dirty comparisons, the two are about equal as hitters (both at 140 OPS+; Sheffield better OBP, Guerrero much better SLG). But defensively, Guerrero seems to have the clear advantage (Rtot has him at +69 while Sheffield posts a -112; not to mention Guerrero had that great arm). What do others think? Anyone care to convince… Read more »

Josh Davis
Josh Davis
9 months ago
Reply to  Josh Davis

Not to mention, Vlad’s got that MVP award on his resume…

Doug
Doug
9 months ago
Reply to  Josh Davis

Vlad had a great arm, but may have tried to do too much with it, resulting in errant throws. He led his league’s outfielders in errors 8 times, and ranks 6th all-time in most errors by a right-fielder (that said, I think outfielders get a bit of a raw deal on errors, as throws getting away from infielders nearly always result in an error to the outfielder, save for flat-out drops by the infielder). But, it certainly wasn’t all bad, as witness these rankings: – Putouts as RF: 2 times leading, 5 times top 3, 7 times top 5 –… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 months ago
Reply to  Josh Davis

I’m pretty agnostic about this decision, but I’d like to make the case for Sheff, just because. 1. Yes, Sheffield and Guerrero have a similar OPS+. But Sheffield has 1,888 more PAs! That’s a 20% playing time advantage over Guerrero. 2. In a similar vein, let’s track their best seasons by OPS+: Sheff – 189 Sheff – 176* Sheff – 168 Sheff – 164 Sheff & Vlad – 162 Vlad – 160 Vlad – 157 Vlad – 156 Sheff – 155 Vlad – 154 Vlad – 150 Sheffield also has a 177 in a partial season that I’m not counting… Read more »

Paul E
Paul E
9 months ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

By the RC/27/AIR metric which mirrors OPS+ but emphasizes OBP at the cost of outs, at their peaks, Sheffield is, by a large degree, the better hitter. And, heavens to Manfred, there is no way in the worId that RF is a significant enough defensive position to sway judgment in Guerrero’s favor. He would have to be Clemente on a Kawasaki to make up the difference
I have voted for Guerrero but will vote for Sheffield next round.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 months ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

To play a bit of Devil’s advocate: We’re not comparing a good RF to an average defender, or even a bad defender. If you do trust BB-Ref’s defensive stats, then Sheffield exceeds bad by a high margin – he’s one of the worst defensive players ever. Now, part of this is because he was so good offensively that he was able to have along career, most of it in the NL, and teams had to put him somewhere, and it was usually a position just outside his competence range. Back when he was a bad shortstop, he probably should have… Read more »

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 months ago

Quick correction: He actually did have ten seasons of -10 or worse, not 11 – I posted the -18 and -14 separately, but those were for partial seasons in 1993 with Florida and San Diego, for a -32, his only truly abyssmal season. -30 or worse is extremely rare, only done 9 times, with nobody having more than one such season. The other 8 are Dunn, Castellanos, Matt Kemp, Rickie Weeks, Ryan Braun, Chris Gomez, Dante Bichette, and Michael Young.

Paul E
Paul E
9 months ago

CC,
Find me a poor fielding catcher and we’ll score 7 runs a game:

RF Sheffield
SS Young
LF Braun
CF Kemp
1B Dunn
3B Castellanos
DH Bichette
2B Weeks

Pretty odd that all these horrid “RField” seasons have occurred in the last 25 years, no? Like, where’s Frank Howard…or Greg Luzinski, Dick Stuart, etc…. ?

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 months ago
Reply to  Paul E

Luzinski and Howard both have 5 seasons of -10 Rfield or worse. Luzinski’s worst were a -20 and a -19, while Howard posted a -18 and two -17’s. Stuarts worst was -13 – it might just be hard for a 1B to rack up as much negative Rfield as guys in the OF.

For a poor fielding C, Dick Dietz in 1970 is your man. -20 Rfield but a slash line of .300/.426/.515.

You might score 7 runs a game, but you also might have your pitching staff revolt on you.

Paul E
Paul E
9 months ago

CC,
What’s really odd is that the “Horrid Eight” all can play multiple positions – poorly, of course, but I believe that versatility provides some advantage.
Somewhere, perhaps on this site, it was mentioned that Dietz was “blackballed” for his union organizing skills? Am I allowed to use that term in 2020?

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 months ago
Reply to  Paul E

A couple of things: CC: I would definitely emphasize that Total Zone likes Sheffield less than any other system. In fact, compare Total Zone to DRS. Let’s focus on Sheffield’s outfield years in the Total Zone era, 1994-2002 (season ages 25-33). In those years, he was -89 in 9,491.1 defensive innings (-9.4 per 1000 innings). In the DRS (2003-2009) era, his age 34-40 seasons, Sheffield played 4386.1 defensive innings of outfield, to the tune of -37 runs (-8.4 per 1000 innings). Is it possible that Sheffield was a better defensive outfielder in his late-30s than in his 20s? I suppose;… Read more »

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 months ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Obviously, it’s unlikely that Sheffield actually got better as he got older, but it’s at least plausible. It wouldn’t be plausible at, say, SS – but for a corner OF spot, it’s not out of the realm of possibility that he became better as he aged at learning batted ball tendencies, positioning himself better, and exhibiting better range not due to speed but due to more intelligent handling of the position. It’s similar, in some ways, to his Rbaser numbers. Now, a difference between +3 and +1 isn’t huge, but his best three seasons for Rbaser. all +3, were at… Read more »

Paul E
Paul E
9 months ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Yes, and heavens to Pythagarus, if you score 3 and allow 2, you win a helluva lot more games (112 wins) than scoring 6 and allowing 5 (96 wins)