133 thoughts on “Circle of Greats 1977 Balloting”

1. Jeff Harris January 25, 2022 at 8:33 pm

   Main: Sheffield, Ortiz, Guerrero
   Secondary: Smith, Williams, Helton

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2. Scary Tuna January 26, 2022 at 1:36 am

   Thanks for putting this together, Doug!

   Question #49: I’m guessing Hoyt Wilhelm. Fairly sure I read a while back that for one season in the middle of his career he was used primarily as a starter, which has got to be an outlier among the other pitchers who meet the criteria for your question. Then again, his entire career could be classified as an outlier.

   Question #48 (yes, I started looking at the questions from the bottom up): James Sheilds?

   And I have no idea whatsoever for #47, so I’ll stop there.

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   1. Doug January 26, 2022 at 4:36 am

      Wilhelm’s lone season with 25+ starts came in 1959, so not in the expansion era. Looking for someone else.

      Shields has 200 games for the Rays, but he doesn’t have 200 games for any other franchise. So, not him.

      Hint for #47: the pitcher I’m looking for gave up a famous post-season home run.

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      1. Scary Tuna January 26, 2022 at 7:16 pm

         Two years off on Wilhelm. Looks like Dr. Doom came up with the answer below.

         As for my other guess, apparently I didn’t read the question very well. For all the good starters the Rays have had and eventually traded, the answer is more likely a reliever in order to have 200+ appearances for two franchises.

         Thanks for the hint on #47. Pitchers who gave us famous post-season home runs: I thought first of Dennis Eckersley, Donnie Moore, and Mitch Williams. BB/9 over 4.5 – it has to be Wild Thing, doesn’t it?

         For #36, Fernando Valenzuela was still 20 when he started a post-season elimination game in 1981. Dwight Godden was also 21 when he did so, but he was several months older than Kerry Wood was.

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         1. Doug Post authorJanuary 27, 2022 at 4:10 pm

            Both are correct. Valenzuela actually started two elimination games in the 1981 post-season.

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         2. Doug Post authorJanuary 31, 2022 at 1:04 am

            It occurs to me that the answer to one of the other questions is another pitcher who gave up a famous post-season home run.

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            1. Scary Tuna January 31, 2022 at 3:51 pm

               Interesting… I’m not picking up on it yet, but someone will figure it out.
3. Richard Chester January 26, 2022 at 12:19 pm

   Question 1: I found Chipper Jones with 9 such seasons

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   1. Scary Tuna January 27, 2022 at 12:45 am

      Good find, Richard. I was surprised to come across three other players (Dave Winfield, Fred McGriff, and Bobby Abreu) who matched Beltran in having eight seasons of 100+ RBI without ever reaching 120. But I didn’t see anyone else with as many as Chipper.

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4. Richard Chester January 26, 2022 at 1:44 pm

   Question 5: He only had 130 games as a catcher but Todd Zeile was behind the plate in his final game on 10/3/2004 at age 39.024 and hit a HR.

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5. Richard Chester January 26, 2022 at 2:32 pm

   Question 4: Seattle in 1995 with Tino and Edgar Martinez.

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6. Richard Chester January 26, 2022 at 3:02 pm

   Question 27: The illustrious Howie Camp whose number 3 game was the highlight of his 5 game ML career.

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   1. Doug Post authorJanuary 26, 2022 at 3:41 pm

      Camp, immortalized in his SABR Bio, was one of four players who debuted on Sep 19, 1917, the most ever in one game for the Yankees. After his cup of coffee, he served in France in 1918, but never made it back to the majors. After his playing days, Camp, a cotton ginner from Arkansas, managed and then umpired in the minor leagues in the South.

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7. Doug January 26, 2022 at 3:18 pm

   So, a bunch more players got inducted. But, still no Bobby Grich (71 WAR), Willie Randolph (66 WAR) or Luis Tiant (66 WAR). But, they did select Jim Kaat (45 WAR), Tony Oliva (43 WAR) and Gil Hodges (44 WAR). Tough to figure.

   Here’s how Kaat stacks up against Tiant (you’ll have to bump up the zoom on your browser).
   http://www.highheatstats.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Kaat-Tiant.jpg

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   1. Dr. Doom January 26, 2022 at 11:41 pm

      Not really using any advanced metrics, I think there is a pretty strong argument in Kaat’s favor. I mean, Kaat’s ERA is worse… but not even 5% worse. And that’s with nearly 30% more innings! That’s an enormous leap. And if you look at FIP, it tells you that Kaat was even better than Tiant, in spite of pitching nearly an extra third of a career. Add on the fact that Kaat is considered one of the best ever to play his position defensively, and you can see why someone would come to that conclusion using two of the most important stats there are.

      If you look at Kaat through from 1961-1975, he has about a hundred more innings pitched than Tiant in his career – 3583.0, which is about as close as you’ll get the two of them. In those seasons, Kaat also had a 114 ERA+, just like Tiant. Additionally, he won 14 Gold Gloves. His record was 234-180, pretty close to Tiant’s 229-172. They’re basically identical… only Kaat was a unicorn who also pitched another (nearly) 1000 innings, at a pretty decent level of effectiveness.

      Point is, I can see the logic there. In order to get Kaat behind, you need to really buy what B-R is selling as far as the defenses he played in front of and the expected runs by the offenses he faced. FWIW, Kaat is one of the players Fangraphs and B-R see most differently. Fangraphs says he’s worth 70 WAR. That seems more right to me.

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   2. Paul E January 27, 2022 at 12:33 pm

      Probably no crazier than Oliva, Hodges, and Minoso getting in over Dick Allen. I imagine a comparison similar to Kaat vs. Tiant would reflect similarly poor optics for the Old Guys’ Committee voters

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8. Richard Chester January 26, 2022 at 4:30 pm

   Question: 12: Not sure of this one but I’ll go with Richie Ashburn in 1953.

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   1. Doug Post authorJanuary 26, 2022 at 7:52 pm

      It was Ashburn.

      He played 659 consecutive games in CF from 1950 to 1954. He missed playing every inning by 3 innings in 1951 (removed early in one game, trailing by eight runs), and by 12 innings in 1952 (entered as 7th inning pinch-hitter in two games).

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9. Mark January 26, 2022 at 5:02 pm

   Resident Pirates fan here…Question 9 has to be Jay Bell, right?

   (As always, love the site, All!)

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   1. Doug January 26, 2022 at 6:21 pm

      Bell is correct. Without the 1994 strike, he would have had 7 consecutive seasons (1990-96) for the Bucs with 130+ games at short.

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10. Dr. Doom January 26, 2022 at 6:14 pm

    Some low-hanging fruit:

    10. Albert Pujols, Paul Waner, and Stan Musial. Well THAT is the poster-child for the “let’s make a group” fallacy in action!
    11. If I’m understanding the question correctly, I think it’s Eddie Murray, who played 150+ twice for the Orioles (duh), Dodgers, and Mets.
    23. Mark McGwire – 1995, 2000, and his incredible 2001, which featured 56 walks, 29 HR, 4 doubles, and only 23 singles. One of the oddest, most lopsided seasons in history. (Also, I’m not sure how many other players have more hits in a season in which H=BB, which just adds to the weirdness of McGwire’s ’01.)
    35. Isn’t this Gaylord Perry?
    40. Joe Niekro nips Oswalt by one, 144-143.
    43. I think it’s Kent Tekulve pitching 399 games from 1976-1980. If there hadn’t been a strike in ’81, he’d have had an even larger number for a different five-year stretch.
    48. Roberto Hernandez had 345 starts with the White Sox.
    49. If I’m understanding the syntax of the question correctly, I believe that would be Goose Gossage.

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    1. Doug January 26, 2022 at 6:26 pm

       All correct, except #43.

       Re: #11, I guessed that John Olerud would have done it with the Blue Jays, Mets and Mariners, but he had no such seasons for Toronto, who spelled him at DH and sat him down against certain left-handers (the year before Joe Carter’s walk-off HR to clinch the ’93 WS, it was Carter who took the toss at first base for the final out in the ’92 WS clincher, though manager Cito Gaston probably should have put in Olerud, who was a fine defender even then, for that final inning protecting a 2 run lead).

       Regarding seasons with Hits = Walks, Eddie Stanky has the record with 127 in 1951, followed by Adam Dunn (122 in 2008) and Jack Cust (111, also in 2008). McGwire’s 2001 season is good for 4th spot with 56, tied with Russell Martin (2018) and Wally Judnich (1948).

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11. Dr. Doom January 26, 2022 at 7:47 pm

    I’m open to discussion changing my mind. But here’s my first attempt at my ballots.

    Primary
    Roy Halladay – Best pitcher on the ballot, best overall player. I always loved Halladay as a pitcher, going back to feeling bad for him as a Blue Jay pitching against powerhouse Yanks and Sawx (it seemed like) every day. He also died on my 31st birthday.
    Scott Rolen – Rolen is the best position player on the ballot. He, Jones, and Beltran are all all-time great defenders with plus bats. I would imagine that they’d all get in… eventually. But I think Rolen is first among equals here.
    Carlos Beltran – I have Beltran and Jones in a literal tie. I don’t mean a subjective one. I used the same statistical measure to sort guys that I always have, and they are dead-even, to the second or third decimal (can’t remember, and I closed my spreadsheet). I’m going to give Beltran the edge. He has a 1.021 postseason OPS, to Jones’ .796, and those aren’t exactly small sample sizes (65 G for Beltran, 76 for Jones). It’s not nothing, and if you looped it in, you’d HAVE to give Beltran the edge, I’d think.

    Secondary
    Todd Helton – I hope he gets into the Hall. I would also love to re-litigate his case against a weaker crop. I think he might be worthwhile.
    Ken Boyer – What more is there to say? He was not the best player born in the best birth year of all-time… but he’s worthy of our consideration, if not induction.
    Monte Irvin – I don’t really believe in Irvin’s case. But I don’t believe in anyone else’s, either, and they’ve all had good shots. I would like someone to try to convince me on Irvin once more.

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    1. Doug Post authorJanuary 26, 2022 at 8:01 pm

       I’m curious where Vlad ranks in your evaluation method. Not a great defender, though he had a plus arm (I remember seeing him throw out a runner at first base on a laser beam to medium depth right field).

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       1. Dr. Doom January 26, 2022 at 11:02 pm

          I have him quite low. A good peak helps (it’s basically a peak-adjusted WAR, with some other minor adjustments thrown in). But the only players he comes out ahead of are Lyons (weak peak and FIP hates him) and Ortiz (average peak and just low WAR). He’s actually ahead of Simmons by raw score, too, but the catcher bonus pushes Simmons ahead. The three I voted for (plus Jones) are the only guys I have over 70 (and this is basically scaled to career WAR). Then I have 14 guys (beginning with Dick Allen and ending with Guerrero) in a gap of 6 WAR. At that point, the hairsplitting is just so intense that it’s hard to know who’s any better than whom. And there are five guys on the Secondary Ballot (Helton, Boyer, Williams, Smith, and Abreu) who are all in that same group. The most qualified player on my spreadsheet, outside the four I’ve mentioned, is actually Jim Bunning, who’s not on any ballots right now, but probably deserves to be. Actually, Hal Newhouser scores even better in the raw data, but gets a pretty brutal adjustment for feasting on very weak competition during wartime.

          [FWIW, my method sees Dick Allen as having the best peak value of any player on the main ballot, essentially seeing his peak as being worth an extra 7.3 WAR. But it’s close: Halladay’s at 7.2, and Stan Coveleski’s at 7.1. Far and away the worst peak belongs to Don Sutton, at -12.5 WAR. (Actually, using just bWAR, which I know most people here use, it’s “only” -9). I have Graig Nettles as closest to his WAR value – his peak is worth only 0.3 WAR.]

          In the main, though, I don’t see Guerrero as a particularly viable COG candidate.

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          1. Doug January 28, 2022 at 3:27 pm

             Your approach reminds me of something Bill James wrote in one of his Abstracts, when explaining whom he thought should be in the HoF. In the main, he felt Hall-worthy players should have been commonly recognized at some point in their career as the best player in the game at their position (or maybe it was “among the best”, can’t recall exactly). Ergo, he was rewarding a high peak, as you are doing.

             The FanGraphs WAR for pitchers is more of a DIPS type of metric, isn’t it, with a big focus on strikeouts, walks and home runs that are independent of the defense the pitcher is working in front of. I get that approach, but I think you also need to look at the rest of the pitcher’s work, when the batter does put the ball in play, so things like H/9, BABip and SLG, with those things adjusted for the quality of the defense behind the pitcher. To me, there’s a big difference between pitchers with a .275 BABip and a .325 BABip, and the largest part of that difference is probably not luck or the quality of his defense. I’m not a big fan of the methodology of the B-R WAR metric for pitchers, but the end result does, at least, look at the whole result of a pitcher’s work, not just the parts that are independent of defense.

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             1. Dr. Doom January 30, 2022 at 10:32 am

                I may choose to write a DIPS-related main post sometime here, because perhaps there could be some interesting discussion on this matter. But I’m just going to let it lie for now. But I’d like to talk a bit about the other point you discussed, which has to do with peak performance in judging a career.

                Regarding peak performance, I think most people do consider it on some level. MVP awards, pennants, All-Star appearances… those things matter to everyone. But for me, it comes down to: what’s the point? I mean the whole point – of player analysis, yes, but of a baseball game, writ large? It’s to win. To me, the players are the ones who give you the best chance to win – not just win a game, but win a championship. The players who give you the best chances to do that are, quite obviously, the best players. I mean, if you think of a team that averages 92 wins, then remove a 2-win player and replace him. Will you win more titles if you replace him with Lou Whitaker or if you replace him with Alan Trammell? I think it’s pretty obviously Trammell. That’s because Trammell had bigger seasons – seasons that are more likely to take you from 90 wins to 96 or 97. Lou Whitaker will take you from 90 to 93. That’s about all he’ll do for you. He’ll do it for a lot of years, yes; but you’ll mostly be watching the postseason from your couch with 93 wins. Now, is there value in that? Sure. There’s value in consistency. You need three-win players to win championships. (Just ask the Angels of the last ten years, if you don’t believe me.) But when you’re talking about Hall of Fame players, you’re looking for the guys who give you the best chance to win titles. Now, some of those will be Ernie Banks or Mike Trout, having seasons for teams that aren’t competing. But over the course of a career, you want a guy who’s going to give you chances to win BIG. So, again, this is just my opinion, but I think the math backs it up: a guy with 20 years of 3-win seasons will not be as valuable for winning championships as a guy with one each of 7.5, 7, 6.5, 6, 5.5, 5, 4.5, 4, 3.5, 3, 2.5, 2, 1.5, 1, .5, WAR and 4 seasons of bupkis. Even though the two players are even in one season and the perpetual 3-win player comes out ahead in 10 of the seasons (a majority), the player with the big numbers, I believe gives you a better chance to win. Both have 20 years & 60 WAR, but one of them gave you seasons that, if everything breaks right, might get you a pennant. The other guy was, at best, the fourth-best player on a pennant winning team, the second-best player on a below-average team, or the lone All-Star on a 100-loss team. When it comes to Hall of Fame or Circle of Greats judging, I think you need to be the guy who gives you the chance at the pennant, not just the guy who was pretty good for a really long time.
             2. Doug February 1, 2022 at 6:39 pm

                Interesting take on the importance of peak value. Thanks.
             3. Richard Chester February 4, 2022 at 1:34 pm

                Doug: The Circle of Greats 1970 Balloting was posted on 1/10/2015. There was a comment by erstwhile reader mosc. He presented a method of calculating peak values of WAR. It may be useful for analyzing the importance of peak value so you may want to revisit it.
             4. Doug February 7, 2022 at 6:14 pm

                Thanks for the tip, Richard.
12. Voomo January 26, 2022 at 10:07 pm

    I’ll vote for the new guys. I think these three deserve to get on the ballot:

    Carlos Beltran
    Andruw Jones
    Roy Halladay

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13. Voomo January 26, 2022 at 10:07 pm

    Secondary

    Willie Randolph
    Minnie Minoso
    Billy Williams

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14. JEV January 27, 2022 at 8:04 am

    Primary: Sheffield, Simmons, Beltran
    Secondary: Smith, Abreu, Irvin

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15. Dr. Doom January 27, 2022 at 9:01 am

    A couple more trivia answers:

    31. Justin Verlander (DET) and Felix Hernandez (SEA), I believe. Verlander’s streak of 30+ starts actually lasted another year (2014), while Hernandez’s lasted two more (2015).

    34. Roger Clemens, for BOS, TOR, and HOU. Didn’t manage it for the Yankees. My first guess was actually Pedro, knowing he’d done it for two franchises, but I was a bit surprised he hadn’t had such a season with the Mets.

    42. Mariano Rivera? That seems too easy, but I think it’s right. 1997-1999. If there’s someone earlier, I couldn’t find it.

    15. This is not the correct answer, but Marquis Grissom played in FOUR consecutive World Series for three different franchises: 1997 with CLE, 1996 and 1995 with ATL, and of course 1994 with MON in the World Series That Should’ve Been. I still think that should count, though. 🙂 Seriously, though, I can think of a few guys with TWO (the aforementioned Grissom and Kevin Brown, for example) but no one with three. I’ll keep wracking my brain.

    Also, ENORMOUS thanks to Doug for always coming up with these delightful trivia questions!

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    1. Doug January 27, 2022 at 2:13 pm

       All correct, except #31, which is only half right, as Verlander does not have the Tiger record for 30+ start seasons, a mark held by Mickey Lolich.

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       1. Dr. Doom January 27, 2022 at 2:54 pm

          Could it be Matt Cain instead?

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          1. Doug January 27, 2022 at 3:39 pm

             Not Cain. Mathewson, Marichal and Hubbell all have more 30+ start seasons for the Giants.

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16. Mike L January 27, 2022 at 10:12 am

    Glad to see this back.

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17. Paul E January 27, 2022 at 12:37 pm

    15) Don Baylor BOS 1986 MINN 1987 OAK 1988

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    1. Dr. Doom January 27, 2022 at 3:08 pm

       Oh, good find! May I ask what your method was for finding this?! Did you just remember or read it on the back of a baseball card or something? Or did you have a way to look it up?

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       1. Paul E January 27, 2022 at 3:53 pm

          Just remembered some typical sports “talk” about “leadership” and Don Baylor. Also, somewhat later on, Dave Winfield (1991 MINN and 1992 TOR) tooting his own horn about leadership. These guys love to be heroes….let’s see them make a 70-win team a 90-win team upon being traded to a “90-game-loser”…..but, obviously, I digress 🙁
          So, yeah, short story longer, I remembered

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          1. Paul E January 27, 2022 at 3:55 pm

             mea culpa….Winfield was not on the 1991 Twins. He just was excited about his “leadership” in some puff-piece interview during the ’92 WS with TOR. Obviously, they won it all (again) w/o him in 1993

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             1. Scary Tuna January 27, 2022 at 5:58 pm

                While Winfield wasn’t with the 1991 Twins, Jack Morris was and then joined the Blue Jays in 1992.
             2. Paul E January 27, 2022 at 6:05 pm

                Yes, Molitor almost won an MVP award in 1993 replacing Winfield at DH for Toronto. Winfield moved on to his hometown Twins in 1993
          2. Richard Chester January 27, 2022 at 5:32 pm

             The answer can be found by using baseball-reference’s Stathead +manual searching.

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18. Richard Chester January 27, 2022 at 1:31 pm

    Question 24: Johnny Rawlings

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    1. Doug February 3, 2022 at 3:00 pm

       Rawlings’ career spanned the end of the dead ball era and the beginning of the live ball era. A decent glove man, he was consistently inept offensively in both periods: dead ball – .563 OPS=72 OPS+; live ball – .653 OPS=72 OPS+.

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19. Scary Tuna January 27, 2022 at 1:45 pm

    #22 – Carlos Correa

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20. Paul E January 27, 2022 at 5:16 pm

    #14) Paul Molitor ?

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    1. Doug January 28, 2022 at 3:03 pm

       You’ve got it, Paul.

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21. Richard Chester January 27, 2022 at 5:21 pm

    Question 18: Marv Breuer was 0 for55.

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22. Scary Tuna January 27, 2022 at 11:51 pm

    #46 – Jose DeLeon in 1985 and 1990.

    Oh so close was Rodrigo Lopez, who led the AL in losses in 2006 (189 innings) and the NL in 2010 (exactly 200 innings).

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    1. Doug Post authorJanuary 28, 2022 at 3:54 pm

       DeLeon’s .095 W-L% (2-19) in 1985 is the NL record low since 1901 in a season of 20+ decisions (Les German went 2-20 in 1896).

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23. Scary Tuna January 28, 2022 at 12:41 am

    #44 – Hopefully I’m not interpreting the question wrong. I found two:

    Orel Hershiser: 7 innings in Game 4 of the 1997 ALDS
    Jaret Wright: 6-1/3 innings in Game 7 of the 1997 WS

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    1. Doug January 28, 2022 at 3:02 pm

       By sudden-death, I meant it was an elimination game for both teams. So, Wright is the one I was looking for.

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24. Scary Tuna January 28, 2022 at 1:00 am

    #28 – Juan Guzman in 1993 (26 wild pitches; .824 winning percentage).

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25. Richard Chester January 28, 2022 at 11:19 am

    Question 8: Woodie Held

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26. Richard Chester January 28, 2022 at 11:51 am

    Question 33: Matt Herges for the Rockies and the Giants.

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27. Richard Chester January 28, 2022 at 2:26 pm

    Question 43: I came up with Pedro Feliciano, 408 games with the Mets from 2006-2010.

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28. Scary Tuna January 28, 2022 at 5:43 pm

    #20 – Kendrys Morales

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    1. Doug January 29, 2022 at 4:16 am

       Morales and George Wright are the only players with 3 or more hits in the first and last games of a career longer than one game. Morales gets the tie-breaker with a Run and an RBI in each game (Wright had both in his debut, neither in his finale).

       Another note on Wright: his -3.7 WAR in 1985 is the third lowest season mark since 1901, and the lowest WAR per PA in any 300+ PA season (and lowest by a fair margin at -0.94 WAR per 100 PA, compared to -0.81 for second place Jerry Royster in 1977).

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29. CursedClevelander January 29, 2022 at 12:17 pm

    I think this is our most interesting new ballot in a while. People who usually give players a PED discount or write them off entirely, what are your thoughts on Beltran’s role in the 2017 Astros sign stealing scandal?

    For trivia, #3, is it Sal Bando?

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    1. Mike L January 29, 2022 at 9:00 pm

       I’m anti-PEDS period. In the “real’ world I thought Ortiz was given a pass because people liked him, or were afraid to dislike him in public. Either open the gates or not. Beltran’s cheating role (particularly because he was a-still active player) would play heavily in my decision. Cheating matters.

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    2. Dr. Doom January 30, 2022 at 6:10 pm

       CC,

       I’m genuinely shocked to see Beltran (for the moment, anyway) polling ahead of Roy Halladay. There’s the Mike L point below, and there’s the tragic early death, the dominance… color me surprised.

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30. CursedClevelander January 29, 2022 at 12:26 pm

    41. One of these should definitely be Jason Schmidt.

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    1. Doug Post authorJanuary 29, 2022 at 6:06 pm

       Bando and Schmidt are correct.

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    2. Scary Tuna January 31, 2022 at 1:13 am

       Is the other pitcher for #41 Kevin Correia?

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       1. Doug Post authorJanuary 31, 2022 at 1:46 am

          It is Correia, who also had 300 IP for the Twins and Padres. Correia recorded six straight seasons (2009-14) with 25+ starts and ERA+ under 100, which appears to be tied for the longest streak of such seasons (there’s a bug in Stathead right now, so that seasons split between multiple teams are not recognized in “number of seasons” queries, so can’t say for sure that there are no longer streaks).

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31. Richard Chester January 29, 2022 at 1:19 pm

    Question 37: I came up with 2 pitchers, Mike Myers and Bob Patterson both in 1996-1997.

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    1. Doug January 29, 2022 at 5:13 pm

       Of those four seasons, only Myers’ 1997 qualifies. So, neither of those players.

       Remember, it’s a max of 2/3 of an inning per appearance.

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       1. Richard Chester January 30, 2022 at 2:48 pm

          I’ll try again. Was it Tom Martin in 2003-2004?

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          1. Doug Post authorJanuary 31, 2022 at 1:24 am

             I have zero recollection of Martin and, looking at his stats, I can see why. Started off okay, with 1.6 WAR in only 56 IP in his rookie season. His second year, he managed -1.1 WAR in only 14.2 IP, in the bottom 20 WAR scores in so few IP. He never got above 0.5 WAR in any season the rest of his career, yet he still managed to get the call over 65 times in three seasons, apparently simply because he was left-handed and presumably could get out left-handed batters. It was a forlorn hope as his platoon advantage was negligible – righties batted .276 against him and lefties were .274.

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32. Richard Chester January 29, 2022 at 4:25 pm

    Question 7: Frank Gustine

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    1. Doug January 29, 2022 at 5:38 pm

       Gustine, born in 1920, remained a regular in the Pirate lineup throughout the war on account of a 4-F classification. Thus, he was able to compile 300+ games at 2B, 3B and SS, all before turning 30.

       Gustine played third briefly in his debut season at age 19, then became the Bucs’ regular second baseman in ’40, ’41 and ’42. The Pirates got four players in the Arky Vaughan trade, including Pete Coscarart whom they tried in Vaughan’s shortstop spot for one season, before moving Gustine there. Then, when Bob Elliott was dealt to Boston, Gustine was moved again, to Elliott’s spot at third. Gustine was an All-Star at both second base and third base, in consecutive seasons.

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33. Andy January 30, 2022 at 5:10 am

    Primary: Beltran, Halladay, Rolen

    Secondary: Boyer, Helton, Abreu

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34. Richard Chester January 30, 2022 at 11:20 am

    Question 32: Don Sutton

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35. Paul E January 30, 2022 at 3:19 pm

    17) Joe Torre and….?

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    1. Scary Tuna January 30, 2022 at 4:45 pm

       B.J. Surhoff is the other for #17.

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       1. Paul E January 30, 2022 at 5:06 pm

          thanks

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36. Scary Tuna January 30, 2022 at 5:47 pm

    #19 – Roberto Alomar has the longest streak I can find among second basemen with 120 hits, 20 doubles and a .265 BA: 15 years in row (1988-2002). He reached 120 hits exactly in the strike-shortened 1994 season.

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    1. Doug Post authorJanuary 31, 2022 at 1:30 am

       Those were the first 15 seasons of Alomar’s career. He had the hits and doubles the next season as well, but a cold finish (.192 BA over his last 15 games) that was perhaps unlucky (he had a microscopic .200 BABIP) produced only a .258 season BA.

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37. Tom January 31, 2022 at 11:47 am

    #13 Derek Jeter. I initially thought Nomar. But Nomar only played 1434 games total. In 14 years, he had 6 seasons of less than 81 games.

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38. Paul E January 31, 2022 at 12:29 pm

    30) Ed Walsh

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39. Richard Chester January 31, 2022 at 12:36 pm

    Question 21: Cy Williams had 2 such seasons for the Phillies, 1922 and 1924

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40. Dr. Doom January 31, 2022 at 12:49 pm

    Doug, I really thought Lenny Dykstra was going to be the answer for #21. Only he missed it by one HR.

    The real answer appears to be Cy Williams for the Phillies in 1924, not his more famous ’23 in which he entered the conversation with Hornsby to become the “NL’s Babe Ruth” by hitting 41 HR. However, that was the only season from 1920-26 that Williams failed to hit .300. So his 24-HR effort from ’24 is the correct answer.

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41. Richard Chester January 31, 2022 at 1:57 pm

    Doug: Concerning question 16 the only 2B that I could find to hit a GS in a sudden-death post-season game was Howie Kendrick in game 5 of the 2019 NLDS but it occurred in the 10th inning.

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    1. Doug February 1, 2022 at 2:12 am

       Right you are, Richard. Kendrick is who I was looking for. My intended meaning was “9th or later” innings, but that’s not what I wrote. Sorry about that.

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42. bells January 31, 2022 at 2:36 pm

    Is the second pitcher in #31 Buehrle? He had 11 such seasons for the Sox and fits the other criteria.

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    1. Doug February 1, 2022 at 2:15 am

       Buehrle is correct.

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43. Scary Tuna January 31, 2022 at 3:30 pm

    #30 – Wilbur Wood led the AL twice in GF (1968, 1970), then in GS four times (1972-5).

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    1. Paul E January 31, 2022 at 4:24 pm

       Tuna,
       I found Ed Walsh as well. Another CWS…perhaps there are more?

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       1. Scary Tuna January 31, 2022 at 11:03 pm

          That was a great find, Paul, especially as Walsh once led in both categories the same season (1912)!

          I always try to see if someone else has answered a question before I post, but I’m sorry I still missed your answer above to #30. Thanks reposting it here. Maybe we will find another.

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    2. Doug February 1, 2022 at 2:16 am

       Wood was the one I was looking for. But, nice find on Walsh.

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44. Scary Tuna January 31, 2022 at 3:50 pm

    #29 – Trevor Hoffman led the league in saves in his age-38 season (2006), but I don’t know if he’s the oldest player to do so.

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    1. Richard Chester January 31, 2022 at 4:18 pm

       I believe he is.

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    2. Doug February 1, 2022 at 7:03 pm

       Interestingly, there are numerous examples of pitchers older than Hoffman leading in saves before it became an official stat in 1969. Al Worthington was saves leader at age 39 in 1968, as were Al Brazle and Joe Berry, at the same age, in 1953 and 1944, respectively. Jim Turner turned the trick at age 41 in 1945, but the real prize belongs to Jack Quinn, saves leader in 1931-32 at age 47-48.

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45. Richard Chester January 31, 2022 at 6:47 pm

    Main: Sheffield, Ortiz, Guerrero

    Secondary: Minoso, Willikams, Berkman

    Trivia fact about Billy Williams: He holds the record for the most games played in a 5 year period, 814 games from 1965-1969.

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46. Richard Chester February 1, 2022 at 12:51 pm

    Question 25: Despite some contradictions on BR Stathead the best answer I came up with is pitcher Tommy Byrne with 6 H in 75 AB for a .080 BA. Oddly enough he batted .258 while in the game as a pitcher. I saw him get 1 of his 6 H as a PH, a game-winning GS versus the Yankees on 5/16/1953.

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47. Voomo February 1, 2022 at 4:32 pm

    So, are we doing 7 votes this year?

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    1. Dr. Doom February 1, 2022 at 7:37 pm

       Should just be one; the BBWAA sets our pace. The Veterans process had no bearing on COG membership.

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       1. Voomo February 1, 2022 at 11:38 pm

          Well, seven would be more fun.

          Perhaps we can gently acknowledge that the end of civilization is upon us and we may not have many more years to do this

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          1. Paul E February 2, 2022 at 12:22 pm

             “Perhaps we can gently acknowledge that the end of civilization is upon us and we may not have many more years to do this”

             Don’t worry, it’s just a lockout…millionaires versus billionaires type stuff. In the interest of capitalism, they’ll be back to work soon enough 🙂

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48. Richard Chester February 2, 2022 at 11:42 am

    Question 2: Joe Cronin

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49. Dr. Doom February 2, 2022 at 3:25 pm

    #38 is Duane Ward, 649.2 relief innings for the Jays.

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50. Dr. Doom February 3, 2022 at 3:21 pm

    I finally figured out #26!!! I had been thinking that it was probably a young player in his first World Series. But then for the first time today, I thought, “What if it was someone old?” And then I got it: Barry Bonds homered in the first three games of the 2002 World Series!

    One more thing, Doug: in one of my earlier comments, I suggested that Mariano Rivera was the answer for #42 (the JJ Putz question). In a comment below it, you said I was right… but then it doesn’t appear on the list. So let me know!

    As for #6 (Marlon Byrd), I got nothing. I believe that’s the last question on the list. I could use another clue. Or Richard’s expertise. One or the other. Because from what I can tell, we’re not going to get that one. I don’t think anyone has even ventured a guess.

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    1. Richard Chester February 3, 2022 at 4:26 pm

       First thanks for the compliment. For #6 I came up with Cy Williams who had 251 lifetime HR. For #42 I got Doug Jones.in 1988, 1992 and 1997.

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    2. Scary Tuna February 3, 2022 at 6:17 pm

       I don’t think anyone has answered #45 yet.

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       1. Richard Chester February 3, 2022 at 6:51 pm

          It’s Rick Rhoden.

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          1. Doug February 3, 2022 at 10:18 pm

             It’s not Rhoden. Or Jerry Reuss. Looking for a relief pitcher. Hint is he allowed a famous post-season home run.

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             1. Scary Tuna February 4, 2022 at 3:08 am

                This one took a while to find: Pete Mikkelson, who as a rookie with the Yankees yielded Tim McCarver’s three-run homer in the top of the 10th inning of Game 5 in the 1964 World Series.

                After losing in seven games to the Cardinals, the Yankees – who had made the World Series five consecutive seasons and 14 out of 16 – wouldn’t return to the playoffs for 13 years. Mikkelsen went on to pitch for the Pirates, Cubs, Cardinals, and Dodgers in a nine-year career, but his teams never reached the post-season again.
             2. Dr. Doom February 4, 2022 at 4:31 pm

                Wow, I never would’ve found that! Good work, Tuna! (That means we got ’em all, right?)
             3. Doug February 4, 2022 at 5:00 pm

                McCarver picked up his battery mate Bob Gibson, who was one out away from a four hit shutout win when Tom Tresh tied the game with a 2-run blast. Gibson stayed in the game to close out the 10th, and the Cardinals went back home up 3-2 in the series.

                Mikkelsen, a New York City native, was traded by the Yankees to the Pirates for Bob Friend who, at the time of the trade, had almost 3500 innings on his 35 year-old arm. Friend would last just one more season, split between the Yankees and Mets.
             4. Richard Chester February 4, 2022 at 5:29 pm

                Doug: Early in the game I posted all the questions into a Word document.At the time question 45 did not show the word “relief”.
             5. Doug February 5, 2022 at 3:55 pm

                You’re right. I spotted that omission and corrected it.
    3. Doug February 3, 2022 at 10:21 pm

       Sorry Doom. I thought you were guessing Rivera for the Bruce Chen question, which I’ve noted. Rivera is not the answer to the J.J. Putz question.

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51. Scary Tuna February 3, 2022 at 6:21 pm

    Primary Ballot: Jones, Halladay, Ortiz
    Secondary: Minosa, Boyer, Abreu

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52. Doug Post authorFebruary 4, 2022 at 1:46 am

    Haven’t talked much about Roy Oswalt. Here’s another Oswalt quiz. Oswalt’s career totals are on the first line below, and those of another pitcher are on the second line. Who’s the other pitcher?
    

    Career Totals

    Rk	Player	WAR	IP	CG	SHO	W	L	W-L%	ERA	FIP	K%	BB%	ERA+	BAbip	HR	BF
    1	Roy Oswalt	49.9	2245.1	20	8	163	102	.615	3.36	3.37	19.9%	5.6%	127	.306	197	9301
    2		49.8	2254.1	20	5	143	122	.540	2.52	3.06	17.6%	8.5%	147	.250	150	9164

    Provided by Stathead.com: View Stathead Tool Used
    Generated 2/3/2022.

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    1. Dr. Doom February 4, 2022 at 1:08 pm

       I looked up the answer – I had a gut feeling.

       Normalizing the W-L record for ERA+, I have “player 2” as having a W-L expectation of 171-79, based on ERA+ and IP. I have Oswalt with a 154-96 expectation.

       If you use FIP, Oswalt still scores a 154-96, while “player 2” gets a 149-101.

       One other interesting comparison is in their Win Probability stats under “Advanced Pitching” on B-R.

       Oswalt had a career WPA of 24.1; player 2 has a distinct advantage (but smaller than I expected once I knew who it was) at 30.5. Their RE24 – which takes into account base-out states, but not game context – again ranks them essentially even: Oswalt at 255.6, “player 2” at 258.8.

       The place where they’re really far apart is championship WPA – 58.4% for “player 2,” with only 16.4% for Oswalt.

       An interesting comparison between two players I wouldn’t have ever really thought of as comparable. But if “player 2” is in the Hall of Fame (which he is – that’s a hint I’m willing to give), it certainly makes Oswalt’s case look a lot more intriguing, doesn’t it? Or perhaps that last number – the championships added – is the relevant number that separates the two of them. It’s an interesting case and comparison. Thanks, Doug!

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       1. Voomo February 6, 2022 at 8:11 pm

          The 2.52 ERA gave it away for me…

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53. Doug February 5, 2022 at 3:57 pm

    Primary – Halladay, Beltran, Rolen
    Secondary – Randolph, Smith, Boyer

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54. Josh D February 6, 2022 at 2:21 am

    Primary – Guerrero, Halladay, Simmons
    Secondary – Boyer, Helton, Randolph

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55. opal611 February 6, 2022 at 8:29 pm

    For the 1977 election, I’m voting for:
    -Carlos Beltran
    -Don Sutton
    -Rick Reuschel

    Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
    -Guerrero
    -Halladay
    -Dawson
    -Rolen
    -Jones
    -Tiant
    -Ashburn
    -Nettles
    -Drysdale
    -Allen
    -Wallace
    -Dahlen
    -Lyons
    -Sheffield
    -Covaleski

    Thanks!

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56. opal611 February 6, 2022 at 8:30 pm

    For the Secondary Ballot, I’m voting for:

    -Willie Randolph
    -Todd Helton
    -Lance Berkman

    Thanks!

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57. bells February 6, 2022 at 11:29 pm

    Eep! Every time I tell myself I’ll be able to get to my analysis before the deadline, and every time it cuts it real close. Well, here it is for the primary this year:

    Dahlen
    Halladay
    Beltran

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58. bells February 6, 2022 at 11:55 pm

    Secondary ballot:

    Smith
    Irvin
    Randolph

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59. Paul E February 7, 2022 at 12:51 pm

    TRIVIA(L):
    Since we managed to solve the 49 questions related to Doug’s 1977-birth year eligibles, I figured I would throw a couple of quizzes out there. The first is related to the Jose Ramirez (CLE 3B) stat line posed in the a prior post:
    1) Who are the only major leaguers to post the following numbers in a season of less than 600 plate appearances: 110 R, 110 RBI, 40 HR, 180 OPS+ ?
    2) Who are the only major leaguers to have posted single-season oWAR records for multiple franchises?

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    1. Richard Chester February 7, 2022 at 2:19 pm

       For question 2 I found A-Rod for the Mariners and Rangers, Dick Allen for the White Sox and Phils and Rogers Hornsby for the Cards, Giants and Braves.

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       1. Paul E February 7, 2022 at 3:10 pm

          Richard,
          Correct! However, I believe the franchise oWAR record for the Giants would be Mays in 1965 at 9.5 over Hornsby’s 9.1 (per b-ref). But, yes, Allen, A-Rod, and Hornsby. Bill James once wrote, true or not, that Hornsby and Allen were the two most controversial players in baseball history. I’d venture a guess that Alex Rodriguez might make third on that list.

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       2. Paul E February 8, 2022 at 11:54 am

          Richard,
          I imagine you know the identity of the players in question 1? Pretty surprising, huh?

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          1. Doug February 8, 2022 at 4:26 pm

             When you’re only player other than the Babe to post a certain type of season, that’s pretty special. Interesting that the two also share a nickname, or part of a nickname.

             One of those seasons by Ruth is also one of only four with 40+ HR and fewer than 60 XBH; Ruth and two of the others were in their late 30s, but who was the fourth player, in his career prime at age 27?

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             1. Paul E February 8, 2022 at 6:09 pm

                One was Henry Aaron – 40HR at age 39…the 27 year old would be a guy who had a pretty good career taking a walk and hitting home runs. Played around the diamond and didn;t exactly run well. I do recall Bill James taking “the banger” over Rod Carew in the BJHBA ratings
60. Doug Post authorFebruary 7, 2022 at 8:51 pm

    Unless I’ve missed a ballot somewhere, we have a tie between Beltran and Halladay. See the runoff election post here.

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