The 118th World Series is underway, the first contested by this season’s league champions. The 19 game difference in the regular season records of the the Astros and Phillies is the largest since the 22½ game spread between the Cubs and White Sox way back in the 3rd World Series in 1906. More after the jump.
While this the first World Series between the Astros and Phillies, it is not their first post-season encounter. These franchises played a memorable NLCS in 1980 when the Phillies won 3 games to 2, with the last four games all decided in extra innings (Houston fans will bitterly remember that the Astros, playing at home, held multi-run leads after 7 innings in games 4 and 5, but lost both contests). The Astros have a 1-3 record in previous World Series, while the Phillies are 2-5. I was thinking this might be an unusual World Series with both teams featuring rookie shortstops, but the last such occurrence was only nine years ago, with Pete Kozma for the Cardinals and Xander Bogaerts for the Red Sox in the 2013 Series.
Game 1 featured a matchup between staff aces Justin Verlander and Aaron Nola. The Astros got to Nola early, with two runs in the 2nd and three in the 3rd, four of those tallies scoring on a pair of home runs, both off the bat of right-fielder Kyle Tucker, who becomes the first Astro with a multi-HR game in the World Series. Verlander was perfect until a one out single by Rhys Hoskins in the 4th. J.T. Realmuto followed with a liner right into Verlander’s glove that likely would have ended the inning by doubling off Hoskins. But, Verlander couldn’t squeeze it and had to settle for only retiring Realmuto. That proved very costly as single, single, double followed to plate three and put the Phillies back in the game. Verlander landed in more trouble in the 5th, allowing a 2-RBI double by Realmuto that tied the game. The bullpens held court after that, with the score remaining tied through the end of regulation, though Houston came close to winning it in the 9th; with two out and a runner on second, Jeremy Pena‘s blooper to short right field looked like it might fall for the game winning hit, but a diving catch by Nick Castellanos saved the day for the Phillies and sent the game to extras. J.T. Realmuto led off the 10th with an opposite field liner that cleared the fence in right. In the bottom of that frame, Houston put the tying and winning runs in scoring position with two out, but pinch-hitter Aledmys Diaz bounced out to third to end the threat. Diaz’s AB featured a call that’s almost never seen, when he was denied first base after getting hit with a pitch. After almost getting hit by a 1-0 fastball, Diaz leaned into the next offering which struck him in the elbow. The home plate umpire ruled, correctly, that Diaz had intentionally allowed the ball to hit him (and had even leaned forward as the pitch approached to ensure that outcome). Given that Diaz’s run meant nothing, one wonders why he was trying to get plunked with first base open, instead of trying to drive in the runners on base to win the game. Philadelphia matched the feat of the 2014 Giants in winning their fourth game 1 on the road; before the wildcard game or series, the 2002 Giants are the only team with three such wins. Houston’s 7 game winning streak comes to an end, one shy of the post-season record. J.T. Realmuto’s home run is the first by a Phillie in extra innings in the World Series. Justin Verlander extended his own record, with his 8th World Series start without a win. Verlander is the 21st pitcher with eight World Series starts; his 6.07 ERA for those games is the worst of that group over 8 consecutive World Series starts. Shortstop Bryson Stott worked a 10 pitch walk. Quiz: which other rookie did the same in a World Series game? (Hint: he also did so as a Phillie shortstop)
If game 1 was a matchup of the #1 pitchers on each staff, game 2 pitted the #1A pitchers. Ergo, there was little or no drop-off from game 1 in either team’s starting pitcher, with Astro lefty Framber Valdez facing Phillie righty Zack Wheeler. Astro batters ambushed Wheeler in the home half of the 1st inning, going up two runs before Wheeler had thrown five pitches, after successive first pitch doubles by Jose Altuve and Jeremy Pena, and another on the second pitch by Yordan Alvarez (Alvarez also took a healthy cut at the first pitch, but fouled it off). A third run was gifted to the home side after a throwing error by shortstop Edmundo Sosa, making his first World Series start. Alex Bregman added a 2-run home run in the 5th in support of Valdez’s 6.1 IP allowing a lone run on just four hits. Philadelphia added one more tally in the 9th, but never got the tying run closer than the on deck circle. Wheeler’s five runs allowed matched his total for the first four starts of his post-season, while Valdez delivered his third straight post-season start of 5+ IP allowing no more than two runs on four hits. With a 3 for 4 game, Jose Altuve seems back in the groove after his 0 for 25 struggle to begin the post-season. Bryce Harper went 0 for 4 to end his 11 game hitting streak, the longest by a Phillie in a single post-season. After his 10 pitch walk in game 1, Bryson Stott worked a 12 pitch free pass in game 2, matching Scott Podsednik (2005) with 10+ pitch PAs in consecutive World Series games (in both instances it was game 1 and 2, and the first World Series games of each player’s career, though Podsednik made outs in each of his extended PAs). Twelve pitches establishes a post-season record for Stott for pitches seen in a pinch-hitting appearance.
After a one day postponement due to heavy rain, Lance McCullers Jr. and Ranger Suarez were the starting pitchers for game 3 in front of a raucous crowd at Philadelphia’s Citizens Bank Park. The atmosphere grew even more frenzied as the home side jumped out to a 4-0 lead after only two innings, on the strength of three home runs, the first by Bryce Harper on the first pitch he saw (making it home runs on consecutive pitches at home, after his NLCS-clinching blast the previous week). Houston threatened with two out rallies in the 2nd and 5th, but Suarez was able to escape unscathed. The Phillie lead was extended to 7-0 in the 5th, after back-to-back jacks, the first a monumental blast by Kyle Schwarber well beyond the center-field wall. Four Phillie relievers closed out the game, with only Nick Nelson taxed, in a 30 pitch 8th inning. Five home runs allowed by McCullers sets a new post-season record, and five home runs by Philadelphia, and five Phillies with home runs, tie World Series records. This was only the second Phillie shutout in the World Series, the first coming on a Curt Schilling CG in game 5 of the 1993 Series. The Phillie home winning streak to start the post-season extends to 6 games, one shy of the record held by three teams, including the 2008 Phillies and 2017 Astros.
Looking to take a stranglehold on the series, Philadelphia went to game 1 starter Aaron Nola to face Houston’s Cristian Javier in game 4. Nola had been knocked around his last two starts, but started this game more promisingly, as both starters logged four shutout frames to begin the game. The Astros got to Nola for three successive singles in the 5th to load the bases with none out. Not wanting Nola to face Astro slugger Yordan Alvarez, the Phillies went to lefty Jose Alvarado, but Alvarado’s first pitch plunked Alvarez squarely in the back to score the first run of the game. Alex Bregman followed with an opposite field 2-RBI double on an 0-2 pitch, and a sac fly and RBI single rounded out the scoring for the visitors. Neither team scored after that, and the Phillies even failed to record a knock as four Astro pitchers registered the first combined no-hitter in World Series history (and also the first Astro shutout in World Series play). Javier’s non-CG hitless start of 5+ IP is the second in World Series play, after Ian Anderson in game 3 of last year’s WS. Javier becomes the first pitcher with consecutive 5+ IP post-season starts allowing zero runs and no more than one hit. Quiz: before Javier, which pitcher allowed the fewest total hits in consecutive post-season 5+ IP shutout starts? Yuli Gurriel (who has yet to strikeout in this post-season) stole second base in the 5th inning, becoming the seventh player with a World Series stolen base aged 38 or older. Quiz: which one of those players stole two bases in the World Series after his 38th birthday?
With the series tied, it was Houston’s turn to go back to their game 1 starter, as Justin Verlander took the mound in game 5 for his ninth World Series start. The Phillies could have gone with Zack Wheeler on normal rest, but instead chose to have their bullpen cover the game, with Noah Syndergaard the first man up. As in game 2, Astro batters started the game aggressively, with a double by Jose Altuve and a single from Jeremy Pena, both on the second pitch, giving Houston an immediate 1-0 lead. In the bottom of that first frame, leadoff hitter Kyle Schwarber also jumped on the second pitch, depositing it in the right-field seats for his second leadoff home run of this post-season, and third of his post-season career, both record-tying feats. The Phillies left the bases loaded in the 2nd, and left a pair on in the 3rd, before Jeremy Pena matched Schwarber with a solo shot leading off the 4th to put the Astros ahead and end Syndergaard’s night. The Astros put a runner on 3rd with nobody out in the 7th but couldn’t score, then pushed across an insurance run in the 8th on a walk, hit-and-run single and groundout, though they left a pair of runners in scoring position to end that frame. In the bottom of the 8th, Rafael Montero allowed a pair of walks and a following single to get the home side back to within one. But, that was a close as the Phillies would get, as Ryan Pressly came on to complete a five out save for the AL champs, aided by a fine fielding play by Trey Mancini on a hot shot to end the 8th with the tying and go-ahead runs aboard, and by a spectacular leaping catch at the wall in the 9th by Chas McCormick. Yuli Gurriel had his whiffless streak end at 47 AB, extending his own record set in 2019 for the most such AB to begin a post-season; it wasn’t Gurriel’s night as he later took a knee to the back of his head after being tagged out in a rundown play, and had to exit the game the next inning. With a 3 for 4 night, Jeremy Pena now has 18 hits including 9 extra-base hits, both one shy of shortstop records for the first 12 games of a post-season. At age 39, Justin Verlander gets the win, his first in a World Series game. Quiz: who is the oldest starting pitcher to record his first win in a World Series game?
Game 6 featured a re-match of the game 2 starters, with Framber Valdez facing Zack Wheeler. Both starters were highly effective in a game that remained scoreless through five innings. Kyle Schwarber broke the tie with a solo homer leading off the 6th. In the bottom of that frame, Wheeler plunked Martin Maldonado to put the leadoff man aboard, then allowed a one out single by Jeremy Pena to put runners at the corners. Phillie manager Rob Thomson did not want Wheeler, despite having thrown only 70 pitches, to face Yordan Alvarez a third time so, as he had done in game 4, Thomson brought in Jose Alvarado to face the Astro slugger. Unhappily for Thomson and the Phillies, that move did not work out any better than it had in game 4, as Alvarado promptly surrendered a monster 452 foot blast by Alvarez to put the home side ahead. The Astros added a fourth tally later in the inning, before three relievers closed out the game and the series, allowing just one baserunner over the final three frames. ALCS and World Series MVP Jeremy Pena scored the winning run in the clinching games of all three of the Astros’ post-season series. This game marked the 30th time a left-handed starter won the World Series clinching game, but the fourth time the Phillies were the victims, tied with the Yankees for the most such occurrences. Framber Valdez becomes the 13th left-handed starter to win two or more games in a World Series, including the clinching game (Quiz: which one of those pitchers accomplished that feat in consecutive seasons?).
Phillies’ rookie SS? Has to be Stocker in 1993, right? Unless we have pitch data for Bancroft in 1915….. 🙁
Well done. Yes, it was Kevin Stocker, leading off in the Phillies’ 5 run 7th inning in game 6 of the 1993 WS.
Stocker posted a 125 OPS+ in 302 PA for his rookie season, but 75 OPS+ in almost 3000 PA the rest of his career.
Yes, by the same token, Hamner, Bowa, and Rollins weren’t exactly Eddie Yost but, we don’t have pitch data from 2015 and it is conceivable that “possibly” Bancroft took some pitches to walk twice? But, how about the Phillies losing seven (7 !!) consecutive WS games by one run (1915 2-5; 1950 1-3) !!
Possibly, but I don’t think there were many long PAs in that series. Longest game was 2 hours 15 minutes, and two of the five games were under 2 hours.
The Bancroft “possibility” was merely a half-hearted suggestion but, upon further consideration:
1) Bancroft was among league leaders in BB as a rookie (1915, 77, 2nd)
2) No radio or television commercial advertisements between innings (re the 2 hours 15 minute game time that probably was typical of the era))
3) In that era, guys choked up using heavier bats spraying the ball and wasting pitches
But, yes, I doubt it……
Chiming in with the occasional random as always, but…
In the ESPN highlights of last night’s game, amidst mentioning of course the first postseason combined no-hitter, I think I also caught something about only the 4th team in World Series history to…score 5 runs in the 5th inning? Such a specific/random follow-up stat, but I wonder if I did hear correctly. Is there a quick query that could be run, to find such a thing?
I found that there were 5 games in which a team scored exactly 5 runs in the 5th inning in a WS game. My search does not include extra inning games.
Giants in game 2 of the 1905 WS.
Yankees in game 2 of the 1951WS
Giants in game 3 of gthe 1951 WS
Orioles in game 2 of the 1970 WS
Braves in game 5 of the 1992 WS
I found 2 extra-inning games.
White Sox in game 3 of the 2005 WS
Yankees in game 5 of the 1952 WS
That game 5 of the 1952 was a weird one for starting pitcher Carl Erskine of the Dodgers who won the game by a score of 6-5 in 11 innings. He breezed through the first 4 innings giving up 2 walks and 1 hit, a bunt single to Mickey Mantle. He unraveled in the 5th inning giving up 1 walk and 4 hits for 5 runs topped off by a 2 out 3-run HR by Johnny Mize. From that point on he retired every Yankee batter through the remainder of the game, 19 consecutive batters.
is Early Wynn the oldest guy with his first WS win (39 in 1959)?
No he is not. The oldest that I found is Dolph Luque who was 43 years and 64 days old when he won his only WS game for the Giants in game 5 of the 1933 WS. There may be others who were older than Wynn.
The others are
Kenny Rogers 41 years 346 days
Darren Oliver 41/18
John Franco 40/37
Wynn was 39/268
The question was the oldest starting pitcher, so Kenny Rogers is the answer.
Pete Alexander is the only pitcher with multiple wins as a starter aged 39 or older.
Kind of amazing that Rogers averaged a mere 5.4 SO/9 IP and accumulated 50 WAR in 3300 innings….I mean, it wasn’t THAT long ago, right? 5.4K/game nowadays and he wouldn’t get promoted out of a high A league as a minor leaguer
You’re looking at it through current lenses. In 2005, the league Krate was 6.2. In 1998, it was 6.1. He was slightly below average, but not significantly so.
Tom,
For the final 10 years of his career (1999-2008), the ML K rate varied from 6.4 – 6.8/ 9 innings and Kenny was at 4.9/9 for approximately 1,800 IP. He’s certainly more Jamie Moyer than Randy Johnson
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHA/CHA195910010.shtml
In the Wynn game above (Game 1, 1959), how does Gerry Staley get credit for a save with an 11-run lead in the 8th inning?
I thought this might be a mistake by B-R in going through their game logs to award after-the-fact saves before such things were conceived. However, the save is also noted in the Retrosheet game log, which is most curious.
Saves became an official MLB statistic only in 1969, but, apparently, were sometimes recorded as early as 1952 for pitchers finishing any winning game, as in this instance. Starting in 1960, saves were recorded consistently by the Sporting News following a formula developed by Chicago sportswriter (and later MLB historian) Jerome Holtzman. As this game was in Chicago, it’s conceivable that Holtzman was the official scorer. Who knows – maybe awarding a save (or seeing one awarded) to a pitcher finishing an 11-0 game prompted Holtzman to develop his formula.
Ironically, a 3-inning save was recorded in the game with the largest winning margin of the modern era, when the Rangers beat the Orioles 30-3 on Aug 22, 2007.
To close the loop on the unanswered quiz questions.
1. Javier becomes the first pitcher with consecutive 5+ IP post-season starts allowing zero runs and no more than one hit. Quiz: before Javier, which pitcher allowed the fewest total hits in consecutive post-season 5+ IP shutout starts? Answer is Roger Clemens in 2000 with 3 hits allowed over 17 IP in these two games.
2. Yuli Gurriel stole second base in the 5th inning, becoming the seventh player with a World Series stolen base aged 38 or older. Quiz: which one of those players stole two bases in the World Series after his 38th birthday? Answer is Phil Rizzuto with a stolen base in these two games in the 1955 World Series.
3. Framber Valdez becomes the 13th left-handed starter to win two or more games in a World Series, including the clinching game. Quiz: which one of those pitchers accomplished that feat in consecutive seasons? Answer is Lefty Gomez, in the 1936 and 1937 World Series.
Given the pause of activity here I would like to submit a quiz. What has been accomplished only by the trio of Yogi Berra, Joe DiMaggio and Johnny Mize? It took place during the World Series.
Richard,
It’s not “first to hit pinch hit homers” nor is it “homered off Ralph Branca”.
I guess it’s not “HR – centric”?
It’s not first to hit a PH HR or off Ralph Branca .It is partially HR related.You have to think out-of-the-box for the answer, it is not like an ordinary answer.
Richard:
A brief relapse from my retirement, because the question intrigued me.
Those three HOFers were on base when Gil MacDougald hit his grand slam in Game 5 of the 1951 Series. I’m not sure what uniqueness that involves, possibly the only time 3 HOF players scored on someone else’s homer?
You got half of the answer although HOFers is not part of the answer that I am looking for. (But I do think it was the only time 3 HOFers were on base for a GS.)
It was the only time in a WS game.
Berra was involved in four consecutive WS grannies, in 1951, 1953 and two in 1956, incl. his own GS.
Other WS home runs on which three HoFers scored:
1929 game 2 – Foxx drives in Cochrane and Simmons
1936 game 2 – Lazzeri drives in Gehrig and Dickey
1956 game 1 – Hodges drives in Reese and Snider
1956 game 2 – Berra drives in Mantle and Slaughter
1975 game 5 – Perez drives in Morgan and Bench
Also, 1925 game 4 – Goslin drives in Rice and Bucky Harris (the latter in HoF as a manager)
Mizes’s World Series exploits are modest (and that’s being kind), so I’d be scouring his games for the answer.
But, Mize does share one unusual WS accomplishment with Lou Gehrig, Joe Morgan and Tino Martinez – recording a hit and a walk in the clinching games of consecutive World Series.
They all scored the next day on a bases loaded triple by Hank Bauer. Is it the only time in the WS the same three teammates scored on two different plays with the bases loaded? Or that it occurred in consecutive games?
Scary Tuna: Your answer is close enough. It is the only time that the 3 same runners scored on a HR and on a triple whether or not if it occurred in 2 consecutive games.. I have not checked for 3 runners scoring on a double. You and no statistician but did a great job.
Thanks, Richard. Great question!
Thanks, too, for your guess, nsb, recognizing the three HOFers on base – unique for a WS grand slam. Without it, I wouldn’t have looked at Game 6 in the ‘51 series, where I stumbled across Bauer’s triple. Since their HOF status wasn’t part of the answer, I figured the quirky fact that Berra, DiMaggio, and Mize scored in alphabetical order both on the HR and triple was probably a bit too far into the weeds. 🙂
This is a little off the beaten path but, amongst players with 250 career home runs, does Derek Jeter have the lowest incidence of grand slams? One in something like 300 bases-loaded opportunities?
Jeter had 1 GS in 308 PA with the bases loaded for a percentage of 0.325%. He had a total of 262 AB for a percentage of 0.382%. Each value is the lowest. I made the analysis for players with at least 260 HR which is Jeter’s total.
Richard,
Thanks! Just something I “coincidentally” noticed….figured it had to be a relatively low percentage. At this same rate, he would only have hit ~40 career homers. How about Mattingly hitting an all-time single-season best of 6 in 21 opportunities in 1987 and being homerless in his other 142 PA’s with the bases loaded?
Guess I’m out of retirement again, but I’d like to correct the impression, however unintended, that a home run is the only positive outcome when the bases are full. Jeter batted .321 in such circumstances, with an OBP of .383 and 225 RBIs, 224 of which didn’t include himself. He had just 11 doubles and two triples, and his slugging average of .389 was far below the .440 he managed lifetime, true, but the .321 BA and the .383 OBP were better than his lifetime results. These are also better figures than those put up by such sluggers as Mays, Aaron, Greenberg, Pujols, Musial, and McCovey with the bases full, even if they bested Jeter in round trips. Perhaps Jeter, not being a true power hitter, deliberately decided (correctly) that keeping the rally alive was the more important thing.
The batter I could find via trial and error who had the highest OBP with the bases loaded—by a considerable margin, by the way— was Mantle at .445, BA .333. In 164 PAs he had 9 homers, fairly impressive, but he took 31 walks, none intentional, driving in 31 runs without even putting the ball in play. He, too, had a strategy for keeping the rally alive.
NSB,
Yes, I saw Jeter hit many soft line drives over many a second baseman’s head. Obviously, some were with the bases loaded. I didn’t intend to give the impression that “a home run is the only positive outcome when the bases are full”. I merely stated that Jeter homered FAR less frequently with the bases loaded than he typically would. It just so happens, per Mr. Chester’s research, that Jeter homered less frequently with the bases loaded than any other ballplayer with 260 career home runs. That’s it…..if I were to pick on Jeter it would be for his play in the field, right? He’s a first ballot Hall of Famer even if he plays LF or 1B, no question
To Bob’s point, Juan Pierre batted .381 and slugged .487 with the bases loaded, one of 7 players with complete data to bat .300 in that split without a HR in 100+ career AB.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/PHI/PHI197706220.shtml
I attended this game a long time ago…Pete Rose was shaking his head in disbelief as Bowa rounded third base. It was the slugging Bowa’s second round-tripper of the series and his only career grand slam. All this, thanks to the Rawlings Rocket
Fun game. Six lead changes in the first six innings to arrive at a 9-9 tie before Bowa’s big blast in the 7th. Bowa homered off of 40 year-old Joe Hoerner, playing his final season. It was Hoerner’s first granny allowed since the first surrendered homer of his career, by Billy Williams in 1964. Hoerner’s next surrendered homer (after Bowa’s) came 5 days later and it was another granny by another HoFer, this time by Willie McCovey.
Bowa homered twice in the 1980 season; both were inside-the-park.
1977 was a lively ball year. Add in expansion, and HRs per team jumped from 94 to 144.
Yes; MLB actually switched manufacturers from Spalding to Rawlings
I wonder whether Doug’s reply to NSB suggests that all retiree identities are shared in the HHS afterlife. I’d be glad to trade off with NSB, but I haven’t actually run into him for a long time. Hope he’s well and the holidays have been good for all!
I had a similar thought: whether nsb’s moniker had been momentarily confused with your retired epm identity. But maybe there was no confusion, either.
Glad to hear from nsb again and hope he stays unretired from commenting.
Top 11 in OBP with the bases loaded (100 PA minimum). Data is incomplete for Speaker, Averill, Appling, Mantle, Carrsquel, Hartnett and Valo.
.505…..Pat Tabler
.487…..Mike Hargrove
.471…..Tris Speaker
.466…..Kevin Seitzer
.451…..Mike Trout
.450…..Earl Averill
.445…..Luke Appling
.445…..Mickey Mantle
.444…..Chico Carrasquel
.444…..Gabby Hartnett
.444…..Elmer Valo
The illustrious Mr. Tabler. Who knew?
Tabler is one of 7 players with career dWAR under -10 and career oWAR under +10.
Elmer Valo is one of three players to hit two bases loaded triples in one game (5/1/1949). Bill Bruton and Duane Kuiper are the others in the modern er.a.
Kuiper has the 5th lowest career ISO among players with 3,500+ plate appearances in the live ball era. I don’t have a “Stathead” subscription but I guessed Bowa, Guillen, and Kessinger incorrectly. So, obviously, an ISO of 0.045 is pretty bad
Here are the lowest 25 ISO players in the live ball era. Wally Gerber and Muddy Ruel make the lowest 25 for the back portion of their careers since 1920; they posted .056 and .057 career ISO, respectively
Luis Castillo is 25th and has the lowest ISO of players who played primarily in this century. Guillen was tied for 61st with a bunch of notables, including Ashburn, Fox, Durocher and Bill Russell.
Doug,
Thanks for the list…not a ot of surprises on there. How about Tresh with the lowest ISO depsite playing in a high-scoring era?
This was posted on Twitter today.https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/784069193872224256/_5uFfe-T_normal.jpg
High Heat Stats
@HighHeatStats
·
3h
Baseball trivia challenge:
@eze12373
discovered that Eli Marrero had assists from both center field (runner at 3B) AND catcher (would-be stealer at 2B) in the same game (4/16/2002).
Can you find ANY other cases of a player getting assists from both CF & C in the same game?
I found such a player, can you?
Craig Biggio did it in this 1991 game against the Braves. Threw out David Justice on a 10th inning steal attempt, then assisted on a 13th inning putout of Francisco Cabrera (probably after a cutoff of Biggio’s throw home) on Cabrera’s go-ahead RBI single to center scoring Tom Glavine (who had walked as a pinch-hitter to start the inning). Biggio had moved to CF to start the 13th after center-fielder Steve Finley was removed in a double-switch.
Marrero and Roger Bresnahan have the most games at C and CF, with 9 apiece, followed by Daulton Varsho (7) and Biggio (5).
Since Doug has now answered, I thought I’d log on to report how the AI tool ChatGPT responded to the quiz.
Here’s the conversation we had (ChatG–as the other bots call him–is very quick; he gave each question about two seconds of thought . . . perhaps he should slow down):
“What baseball player had assists from both catcher and center field in the same game?”
“I am not aware of any baseball player who has recorded an assist from both the catcher and center field positions in the same game. It is highly unlikely for this to happen because of the nature of the positions and the responsibilities of the players in those positions during a game.”
“You may not be aware of any, but would you admit that Eli Marrero performed this feat in a game played on 4/16/2002?”
“I apologize, my previous statement was incorrect. Eli Marrero, a player for the Atlanta Braves, did indeed record an assist from both the catcher and center field positions in a game played on April 16, 2002. Marrero was the catcher in the top of the 8th inning, he then moved to center field in the bottom of the 8th and recorded another assist.”
“Thank you for conceding the point. What would you say about Craig Biggio’s performance in a game on 4/27/1991?”
“Craig Biggio, a player for the Houston Astros, did record an assist from both the 2nd base and catcher position in a game played on April 27, 1991. He played 2nd base in the top of the 9th inning, he then moved to catcher in the bottom of the 9th and recorded an assist throwing out a runner trying to steal second base. This is a very rare and unique achievement, and I apologize for any confusion in my earlier response.”
— Note that this isn’t actually right and strays from the original prompt, but it’s close.
“I appreciate your apologies. Actual humans seem often untrained in this art.”
“I apologize if my earlier responses were not accurate. As a language model, I try my best to understand and respond to questions, but I am limited by the information that I have been trained on and sometimes I might miss something. However, I am continuously learning and updating my knowledge. Thank you for bringing this to my attention and I will try to be more accurate in the future.”
“Well, I think you are a model language model. Good evening.”
“I’m glad that I could help. Thank you for your kind words. If you have any other questions, please feel free to ask. Good evening to you too!”
— I didn’t have the heart to tell him that Richard and Doug (whom I have always regarded as model humans) had exceeded his skill. I worried he’d have trouble sleeping.
Thanks, Bob; this was entertaining.
If it could experience trouble sleeping, then based on ChatG’s being programmed to respond politely, I would instead anticipate an expression of humility (maybe even a blush?) at being mentioned in the company of Richard and Doug – despite the conclusion that the AI tool’s knowledge is comparatively wanting.
A good point, Scary. In the end, although I didn’t shame him with comparisons to Richard and Doug, I didn’t let ChatG off the hook so easily last night–I asked him to reexamine his erroneous description of the Biggio game and explain how he came to boot the play so badly (which provoked interesting responses about AI, but not about baseball). There were many more apologies and expressions of good will, ending with, “I will strive to provide more accurate information in the future.” Then we called it a night.
Though he has much to learn yet about baseball jargon and nuances of the game, ChatG certainly models good manners. Could frequent interaction with him perhaps have the unintended consequence of raising the level of civility in our culture?
HAL9000 with a measure of modesty?
Yes. No stress pill required.
Yet.
This is a test.
19670428 PHI ATL 8 9
19770515 SLN ATL 12 15
19870607 SDN ATL 12 13
In he past few years I have created several spreadsheets concerning baseball stats. The one that I consider to be the crown jewel can identify comeback wins by x number of runs behind. Listed below are all 9-inning games won by the home team who were 8 or more runs behind.
The first column is the date of the game.
The second column is the losing visiting team.
The third column is the winning home team.
The fourth column is the visiting team runs scored.
The fifth column is the home team runs scored.
19670428 PHI ATL 8 9
19770515 SLN ATL 12 15
19870607 SDN ATL 12 13
20100520 CIN ATL 9 10
20090630 BOS BAL 10 11
19400703 PHA BOS 11 12
19500828 CLE BOS 14 15
19670820 CAL BOS 8 9
19500518 SLN BRO 8 9
19110814 BRO BSN 9 13
19380524 CIN BSN 9 10
19860829 DET CAL 12 13
19150908 DET CHA 9 10
19780613 CLE CHA 9 10
20020628 CHN CHA 9 13
19300928 CIN CHN 11 13
19800419 NYN CHN 9 12
19980912 MIL CHN 12 15
20080530 COL CHN 9 10
20180414 ATL CHN 10 14
19010523 WS1 CLE 13 14
19060814 WS1 CLE 8 9
19210704 CHA CLE 10 11
19590907 DET CLE 14 15
19790907 TOR CLE 8 9
19840928 MIN CLE 10 11
19950604 TOR CLE 8 9
19990507 TBA CLE 11 20
19990703 KCA CLE 8 9
19990831 ANA CLE 12 14
20090525 TBA CLE 10 11
19940628 SDN COL 9 10
20010927 SDN COL 9 13
20040704 DET COL 8 10
20080704 FLO COL 17 18
20100825 ATL COL 10 12
19010425 MLA DET 13 14
19110618 CHA DET 15 16
19200921 WS1 DET 11 12
19340714 NYA DET 11 12
19650620 KC1 DET 8 12
20030927 MIN DET 8 9
19940718 SLN HOU 12 15
19860520 CLE MIL 9 12
19970516 SFN MON 13 14
20030826 PHI MON 10 14
19330527 CHA NYA 11 15
19330603 PHA NYA 11 17
19850513 MIN NYA 8 9
19930725 CAL NYA 8 9
20050621 TBA NYA 11 20
20060516 TEX NYA 13 14
19930618 KCA OAK 9 10
20090720 MIN OAK 13 14
19250615 CLE PHA 15 17
19290523 WS1 PHA 8 9
19290802 DET PHA 10 11
19130930 BRO PHI 9 10
19260610 PIT PHI 9 13
19890608 PIT PHI 11 15
19460811 CHN PIT 9 10
19940715 HOU PIT 8 11
19740610 PIT SDN 8 9
20210708 WAS SDN 8 9
19690510 WS2 SE1 13 16
19960415 CAL SEA 10 11
19330701 PHA SLA 14 15
19360617 PHA SLA 13 14
19400625 PHA SLA 10 12
19110531 CIN SLN 8 15
19920509 ATL SLN 11 12
20000505 OAK TEX 16 17
20180705 MIA WAS 12 14
19230915 DET WS1 8 9
19290801 SLA WS1 9 13
I should have mentioned that the list contains games from 19001-2021.
Cleveland has 11 such wins, almost twice as many as the next highest total of 6, by the Tigers, Yankees and Braves. And, the Browns (of all teams) did it to the A’s 3 times in an 8 year span.
Most times on the wrong end are the Senators/Twins with 8 such games, followed by the A’s (7) and Tigers (6).
The Tigers’ 14-13 win over the Brewers on 4-25-1901 was on opening day, with Detroit scoring 10 in the bottom of the 9th for the walk-off win. Detroit won each of the other 3 games of that series in their last AB, incl. 6-5 and 12-11 walk-off wins, and a 13-9 win after a 5-run 8th inning uprising. The Brewers moved on to Cleveland and lost their first game there by a 4-3 count after allowing a 3-spot in the 8th, then finally won their first game by an 8-6 score. After 6 games of existence, Milwaukee was 1-5 when leading after 7 innings, surrendering leads of 9, 7, 3, 2 and 1 run. It didn’t get much better after that, with a 29-80 season record when scoring 6 runs or less, and only 19-9 when scoring 7 or more. Those Brewers remain the only team since 1901 (I think) to lose the first three times they scored 7+ runs, and they did it in the first series of the season.
Cleveland won three such games in four months of the 1999 season, when they scored 1009 runs (5th- most since 1901).
Having already clinched their division, the 2003 Twins lost their final two games to the 43-119 Tigers, who wanted to avoid tying the ‘62 Mets for most defeats in the modern era. Taking the loss in the 09/27/03 game was 46-year-old Jesse Orosco in his MLB-record 1,262nd and final pitching appearance.
In their 07/20/09 loss to the A’s, the Twins pitchers – in the heyday of the organization’s “pitch-to-contact” philosophy – faced 47 batters and struck out none of them (a nearly impossible feat in 2022). The A’s went 22 for 44 with three walks, scoring 14 runs to overcome a 3rd inning 12-2 deficit.
“the Twins pitchers … faced 47 batters and struck out none of them (a nearly impossible feat in 2022)”
Actually, it’s been impossible for some time now – 5 seasons to be exact since, who else, the Twins struck out nobody in a 4-2 win over the Royals on 9-7-17. Six weeks before that, the White Sox almost matched those ’09 Twins, striking out none of 46 Indian batters faced on 7-28-17. In fact, no team has faced as many as 47 batters without striking out at least one since the game you cited.
Oh, my – that’s a dubious distinction to hold.
I know we discussed this topic on HHS not too long ago, but I couldn’t remember the specifics – only that it has become quite rare. Thanks for filling in some of the details, Doug.
In the second game of a double bill on 9/7/1959, after overcoming the big deficit in game 1, Cleveland scored three runs in the bottom of the 9th to again overtake the Tigers 6-5.
https://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1959/B09072CLE1959.htm
Manager Dykes must have been apopletic after a day like that.
Here’s the list for winning visiting teams (column 2).
20210819 ANA DET 13 10
19780705 ATL LAN 9 8
19560902 BAL BOS 11 10
19410928 BOS PHA 12 11
19310728 CHA NYA 14 12
19990622 CHN COL 13 12
20110707 CHN WAS 10 9
19590814 CIN PHI 15 13
19340821 CLE PHA 12 11
19550418 CLE KC1 11 9
19380612 DET WS1 18 12
19790615 KCA MIL 14 11
19470908 NY1 PIT 10 8
19500418 NYA BOS 15 10
19710730 NYA MIN 11 9
19960512 NYA CHA 9 8
20120421 NYA BOS 15 9
19720902 NYN HOU 11 8
20060821 OAK TOR 12 10
19390713 PHA CHA 12 10
19390830 PHA SLA 9 8
19430618 PHI BRO 10 8
19610623 PHI PIT 12 11
19790811 PIT PHI 14 11
20160602 SEA SDN 16 13
19700414 SFN ATL 15 11
19890904 SFN CIN 9 8
19520615 SLN NY1 14 12
19680609 SLN CIN 10 8
20020512 SLN CIN 10 8
20120818 TBA ANA 10 8
20140620 TOR CIN 14 9
20150428 WAS ATL 13 12
Does anyone here believe Helton or Rolen will survive the 75% threshold for Cooperstown this week? There both at about 79% with roughly 46% of ballots reporting…..
Well, they would need 72% of the remaining ballots. Is it likely that those remaining ballots would be 7 points lower than the ones we know? No idea, but my guess is their chances are reasonably good.
I have to believe that if the Coors effect was “forgiven” for Walker, it certainly can be overlooked for a reasonable good- gloved first baseman. Rolen? Hall of Fame talent….HoF career? I dunno….a lot of injuries. Might have hit 400 homers- but didn’t. Missed at least 300 games in his prime due to injuries
Re: “Coors effect”
Neutralizing park effects is definitely one of the big benefits of WAR. On that basis, 70 WAR seems to be the HoF standard for players other than pitchers and catchers. I count only three eligible players (Grich, Dahlen, Whitaker) above that mark who aren’t in the HOF, aren’t on the current ballot and don’t have some sort of “baggage” that’s keeping them out.
At 61.8 WAR, Helton is well short of that standard. In addition to the three names above, you can add Lofton, Randolph, Evans, Bell, Nettles, Boyer and Glasscock as eligible players with more WAR than Helton who are not in and not on the ballot.
The one thing that might be in Helton’s favor is that every eligible first baseman at 61+ WAR and without baggage is already in. Currently, Keith Hernandez’s 60.3 WAR leads first sackers on the outside looking in. Perhaps first basemen get some slack from the HoF voters for the huge negative dWAR scores (-115 Rpos in Helton’s case) they accumulate just for being first basemen.
“Perhaps first basemen get some slack from the HoF voters for the huge negative dWAR scores (-115 Rpos in Helton’s case) they accumulate just for being first basemen.”
Funny, I was thinking that as great a fielding 3B as Rolen was (five greatest of last 50 years?), he was still getting too much credit for his fielding. I wonder how large the “WAR” faction is amongst these voters (versus how many go by the “eye” test)? Per the eye test, how many of the guys with WAR totals greater than Helton did you think were Hall of Famers?
Being from Canada, I see a lot of Blue Jay games. So, last year I got to see Matt Chapman play almost every day, and almost every day he made a play (or two, or three) that most third basemen wouldn’t, not to mention making almost every other play flawlessly. That Chapman is credited with only 2 Rfield last year seems preposterous – I saw him save two runs in a single game, and not just once! Possibly, normalizing park effects can get overdone in certain situations, penalizing too harshly, for example, when a ball park has small foul territory, and rewarding too generously when the foul area is enormous (as in Chapman’s Rfield scores of 15, 23 and 28 in Oakland).
Kind of went off on a tangent, there. My main point, though, is that a top flight defender makes a huge difference, and third base is one of the positions where that difference is most apparent to the observer. So, I don’t think I would begrudge Rolen whatever WAR rewards him with defensively.
I get it; I just don’t think Chapman is a bargain at $12M while striking out 197 times/162g over the last two years regardless of whether he stands on his head and makes those plays. To a further extent, Rolen was “probably” voted a HoF’er based on the extent his dWAR pushes up his overall WAR and might be the first (in my estimation) pure WAR selection by the BBWAA….and, most likely, evidence of the shape of things to come?