This post is for voting and discussion in the 137th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG). This round of balloting adds to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1978. Rules and lists are after the jump.
The new group of 1978-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This group of 1978-born candidates joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.
In addition to voting for COG election among players on the main ballot, there will be also be voting for elevation to the main ballot among players on the secondary ballot. For the main ballot election, voters must select three and only three eligible players, with the one player appearing on the most ballots cast in the round inducted into the Circle of Greats. For the secondary ballot election, voters may select up to three eligible players, with the one player appearing on the most ballots cast elevated to the main ballot for the next COG election round. In the case of ties, a runoff election round will be held for COG election, while a tie-breaking process will be followed to determine the secondary ballot winner.
Players who fail to win either ballot but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. One additional round of eligibility is earned by any player who appears on at least 10% of the ballots cast or, for the main ballot only, any player finishing in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances. Holdover candidates on the main ballot who exhaust their eligibility will drop to the secondary ballot for the next COG election round, as will first time main ballot candidates who attract one or more votes but do not earn additional main ballot eligibility. Secondary ballot candidates who exhaust their eligibility will drop from that ballot, but will become eligible for possible reinstatement in a future Redemption round election.
All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EST Sunday, February 5th, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EST Friday, February 3rd.
If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1978 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also in the spreadsheet is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1978 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.
Choose your three players, for both the main and secondary ballots, from the lists below of eligible players. The current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1978 birth-year players are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.
Holdovers:
| MAIN BALLOT | ELIGIBILITY | SECONDARY BALLOT | ELIGIBILITY |
|---|---|---|---|
| Bill Dahlen | 9 rounds | Todd Helton | 13 rounds |
| Dick Allen | 7 rounds | Minnie Minoso | 7 rounds |
| Luis Tiant | 5 rounds | Bobby Abreu | 5 rounds |
| Carlos Beltran | 4 rounds | Ken Boyer | 5 rounds |
| Vladimir Guerrero | 2 rounds | Billy Williams | 4 rounds |
| David Ortiz | 2 rounds | Reggie Smith | 3 rounds |
| Scott Rolen | 2 rounds | Monte Irvin | 2 rounds |
| Gary Sheffield | 2 rounds | Richie Ashburn | this round ONLY |
| Ted Simmons | 2 rounds | Lance Berkman | this round ONLY |
| Don Sutton | 2 rounds | Stan Coveleski | this round ONLY |
| Bobby Wallace | 2 rounds | Andre Dawson | this round ONLY |
| Andruw Jones | this round ONLY | Don Drysdale | this round ONLY |
| Ted Lyons | this round ONLY | ||
| Graig Nettles | this round ONLY | ||
| Willie Randolph | this round ONLY | ||
| Rick Reuschel | this round ONLY |
Everyday Players (born in 1978, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Aramis Ramírez
Jimmy Rollins
Victor Martinez
Chase Utley
Vernon Wells
Carlos Peña
Endy Chávez
Miguel Olivo
Yorvit Torrealba
Milton Bradley
Chone Figgins
Willie Harris
Ryan Ludwick
Xavier Nady
Juan Rivera
Jason Bay
Matt Diaz
Greg Dobbs
Cristian Guzmán
Dewayne Wise
Josh Bard
Joe Crede
Esteban Germán
Nick Johnson
Pitchers (born in 1978, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Kyle Lohse
John Lackey
Jason Marquis
Barry Zito
Aaron Harang
Brad Penny
Chad Qualls
Kevin Gregg
Cliff Lee
Chris Capuano
Juan Cruz
Peter Moylan
Joel Piñeiro
José Valverde
Mike González
Matt Guerrier
Jon Rauch
Mike Adams
Tony Armas
Gil Meche
Odalis Pérez
Ben Sheets
As is our custom with first time candidates, here is a factoid and related quiz question on each of the new players on the ballot. Unless specified otherwise, references in the quiz questions are to modern era (since 1901) seasons in the AL and NL.
| 1 | Aramis Ramírez recorded 1000+ games at 3B for the Cubs, and 1000+ games at 3B for other teams. Which other two players recorded 1000+ games at 3B for one club, and another |
| 2 | Jimmy Rollins is the third player to post a season (2007) with 30+ home runs and 20+ triples. Which two Hall of Famers matched that feat? Jim Bottomley (1928), Willie Mays (1957) |
| 3 | Kyle Lohse led his league with an .842 W-L% in a season (2012) with decisions in fewer than 58% of his starts. Which pitcher led his league with a higher W-L% in such a season? Aaron Sanchez (2016) |
| 4 | Victor Martinez recorded 900+ hits for both the Tigers and Indians. Which other player recorded 900+ hits for the Tigers and for another franchise? Magglio Ordonez (Tigers and White Sox) |
| 5 | Chase Utley’s 1453 games at 2B is a Phillie franchise record. Whose record did Utley break? Tony Taylor |
| 6 | Vernon Wells led the majors with a Blue Jay franchise record 215 hits in 2003, while also leading the AL in doubles and total bases. Which other two Blue Jays posted seasons leading the AL in both doubles and total bases? Shawn Green (1999), Carlos Delgado (2000) |
| 7 | Jason Marquis’ 6.02 ERA in 2006 is a Cardinal franchise worst in a qualified season since 1901. Whose record did Marquis break? Bill Sherdel (1929) |
| 8 | Barry Zito posted a career W-L% of .618 in the AL, but only .441 in the NL. Since 1901, which pitcher has the only larger difference in career W-L% between leagues, among pitchers with 1000+ IP and 125+ decisions in both the AL and NL? Zack Greinke |
| 9 | John Lackey led the AL with a 3.01 ERA for the 2007 Angels. Which Angel pitcher led his league in ERA and won the CYA in the same season? Dean Chance (1964) |
| 10 | Brad Penny, at age 25 for the 2003 Marlins, started and won the first two World Series games of his career, allowing no more than two runs in each contest. Which two pitchers as young as Penny matched his feat, while playing for teams that did not win the World Series? Waite Hoyt (1921), Jim Lonborg (1967) |
| 11 | Carlos Peña batted .227 with a league-leading 39 HR in 2009, the fourth lowest BA by a league home run champ. Which player posted the lowest batting average while leading his league in homers? Dave Kingman (1982) |
| 12 | Aaron Harang led the NL in wins, complete games and strikeouts for the 2006 Reds. Which pitcher did Harang edge out to become the tallest Red with that trifecta? Ewell Blackwell (1947) |
| 13 | Chad Qualls recorded four straight seasons (2005-08) of 70+ games with 115+ ERA+ and BB/9 under 3. Which pitcher has the only longer streak of such seasons? Tony Watson (2014-18) |
| 14 | Yorvit Torrealba came off the bench to stroke a run scoring triple in the first AB of his career. Which other catcher had the same career debut? (Hint: it was the only game of his career) Charlie Lindstrom (son of HOFer Freddie Lindstrom) |
| 15 | Endy Chávez posted consecutive seasons (2003-04) of 5+ HR, 5+ triples and three times as many stolen bases as triples. Which other Expo or National centerfielder matched this feat? Marquis Grissom (1991-92) |
| 16 | Miguel Olivo posted the lone qualified season of his career as a 32 year-old catcher for the 2011 Mariners. Who is the oldest catcher to record a lone qualified season in a career of 10 or more seasons? Gregg Zaun (2005) age 34 |
| 17 | Cliff Lee led the AL in wins, W-L% and ERA for the 2008 Indians. Which other Cleveland pitchers have matched that feat? Corey Kluber (2017), Shane Bieber (2020) |
| 18 | Kevin Gregg recorded consecutive seasons (2014-15) of 10+ games with ERA reaching 10. Which other pitcher has matched that feat? (Hint: he was also born in 1978) Chris Bootcheck (2008-09) |
| 19 | Joel Piñeiro posted a career worst 6.36 ERA as a swingman for the 2006 Mariners. Which pitcher recorded the highest ERA in a season, like Pineiro’s, with 15+ starts and 15+ relief appearances? Todd Van Poppel (1996) 9.06 ERA |
| 20 | Xavier Nady’s best season came in 2008 with 35+ doubles, 25+ HR and 90+ RBI in a campaign split between the Pirates and Yankees. Who was the first player to post those same totals in an expansion era season split between two or more franchises? Bobby Bonilla (1995) |
| 21 | Milton Bradley led his league in 2008 in OBP, OPS and OPS+, despite fewer than 25 HR and more than 100 strikeouts. Which other player did the same? Dick Allen (1967) |
| 22 | Juan Rivera’s 2006 season included 20+ doubles, 20+ HR and a .300+ BA, while playing 20+ games at each outfield position. Who was the first player to record such a season? Babe Ruth (1920) |
| 23 | Willie Harris hit fewer than 50 home runs in a 1000+ game career, including 200+ games at 2B, LF and CF. Which other player recorded such a career? Cesar Tovar |
| 24 | Juan Cruz recorded consecutive seasons (2007-08) with an .850+ W/L% and 150+ ERA+ in 50+ games, all in relief. Which other pitcher did the same? Brad Ziegler (2012-13) |
| 25 | Ryan Ludwick’s best season came in 2008, one of 16 seasons by Cardinals with 35+ 2B, 35+ HR, 100+ R and 100+ RBI. Which of those Cardinals reached those marks with more whiffs than Ludwick’s total of 146? Jim Edmonds (2004) |
| 26 | Chone Figgins led his league in walks and times caught stealing at age 31 in 2009. Who is the oldest player to match that feat? Brett Butler (1991) age 34 |
| 27 | José Valverde recorded 3 seasons finishing more than 90% of 70+ relief appearances. Who is the only pitcher with more such seasons? Dan Quisenberry (1980, 1982, 1984-85) |
| 28 | Chris Capuano recorded the final shutout of his career for the 2011 Mets while also posting a career worst qualified ERA+ of 81. Which Met pitcher recorded consecutive seasons with one or more shutouts and qualified ERA+ under 85? Al Jackson (1964-65) |
| 29 | Peter Moylan led the majors in appearances in 2017, but recorded nary a decision. Which pitcher matched that feat with more appearances than Moylan’s total of 79? Randy Choate (2012) |
| 30 | Cristian Guzmán matched a Senator/Twin franchise record with three seasons leading the AL in triples. Which player shares that record with Guzman? Zoilo Versalles (1963-65) |
| 31 | Dewayne Wise recorded 30+ HR and 100+ RBI in a 575 game career including 100+ games at each outfield position. Who was the first player to post such a career while playing fewer career games than Wise? (Hint: he recorded more than twice as many HR and RBI as Wise, and almost twice as many strikeouts) Pat Seerey (1943-49) 561 games |
| 32 | Jon Rauch recorded 21 wins in fewer than 300 IP for the Expos and Nationals. Which pitcher posted more wins in as short a tenure with the franchise? Bill Sampen (1990-92) 22 wins |
| 33 | Mike González’s two 40+ IP seasons with 200+ ERA+ are tied for the most by a Pirate. Who was the first pitcher to record two such seasons for Pittsburgh? Carmen Hill (1915, 1918) |
| 34 | Matt Diaz‘s three non-qualified seasons (less than 3.1 PA per team game) of 120+ games with a .300+ BA and .800+ OPS are tied for the most in a career. Using the same qualification standard, which player shares that record with Diaz? Ernie Lombardi (1935-37) |
| 35 | Jason Bay‘s 97 home runs over his first four seasons (2003-06) were then the most by a Canadian-born player to begin a career. Which player holds that distinction today? Vladimir Guerrero Jr. (104 HR) |
| 36 | Matt Guerrier’s 4 seasons (2007-10) for the Twins with 70+ games pitched is a franchise record. Who was the first Twin to pitch 70+ games in a season? Ron Perranoski (1969) |
| 37 | Greg Dobbs’s career totals of 959 games and 2272 PA are by far the most among players with 45% of games as a pinch-hitter and negative career oWAR and dWAR. Who was the first player with such a career of 500+ games and 1000+ PA? Cap Peterson (1962-69) |
| 38 | Odalis Pérez recorded 4 complete games in his career, all of them in the 2002 season, the most CG by a player having all of his CG in one season of a 10+ season career as a pitcher. Which player had the most CG with all of them in one season of an 8+ season career as a pitcher? (Hint: the awkward wording is intended to exclude players who pitched in only a small part of their careers; ergo, Johnny Lindell is not the answer) George Zuverink (9 CG in 1954) |
| 39 | Gil Meche is the only pitcher with 100+ games for the Royals and Mariners. His six .500 or better seasons of 15+ starts for Seattle are the most among pitchers to never post a losing record for the Mariners in such a season. Whose Mariner record did Meche break? John Halama (3 seasons, 1999-2001) |
| 40 | Tony Armas was used exclusively as a starting pitcher in eight seasons as an Expo and National. Moving to Pittsburgh, Armas posted a 6.03 ERA as a swingman in 2007, the worst ERA by a Pirate pitcher in a season of 15+ starts and 15+ relief appearances. Whose Pirate record did Armas break? Hal Carlson (1922) |
| 41 | Joe Crede swatted 140 home runs with a 92 OPS+ in a career including 800+ games at 3B. Which other third baseman posted those identical totals in a career with as many games at the hot corner? Terry Pendleton |
| 42 | Ben Sheets’ 250 career starts is the 3rd highest total of the expansion era among retired pitchers used exclusively as starters. Which active pitcher has more starts than Sheets and has yet to pitch in relief in the regular season or post-season? Gerrit Cole |
| 43 | Nick Johnson’s two qualified seasons (2005-06) with 135+ OPS+ are the most by an Expo/National first baseman. Who was the first Expo/National first baseman to record one such season? Al Oliver (1982) |
| 44 | Esteban Germán played 75+ games at 2B and 3B for the Royals. Which teammate of Germán’s did the same? Alberto Callaspo |
| 45 | Josh Bard caught 100+ games for the Indians and Padres. Who was the first catcher to do this? Fred Kendall |
| 46 | Mike Adams’ 1.66 ERA is a Padre franchise best in 200+ career IP for the Friars. Whose Padre record did Adams break? Kevin Brown |
It’s good to be back considering candidates for the Circle of Greats. Thank you for putting this all together, Doug.
#2: Willie Mays and Jim Bottomley
#6: Shawn Green and Carlos Delgado
#11, HR + low BA= Dave Kingman. 1982: .204, 37,
Chase Utley is tied for 95th in position player WAR with 64.5.
Due to his well-regarded ages 25-33 defense, he amassed that number in only 7,863 PA.
The only players with a higher WAR in fewer PA are:
82.4 / 6,159 – Trout
79.8 / 7,691 – Brouthers
79.2 / 7,672 – Joe D
78.0 / 7,723 – Arky V
70.7 / 7,372 – Mize
His counting stats are modest for COGer:
1103 Runs
1885 Hits
259 HR
154 SB
1025 RBI
117 OPS+
5th in the modern era in HBP.
5-year run with an average WAR of 7.9
6-year run with an average WAR of 7.6
(average oWar in that time of 5.6)
Voomo,
Rollins and Howard won MVP awards for those teams but, apparently, Utley was the most valuable. WAR loves OBP, BB, and HBP. Rollins didn’t walk much and, based on the ballpark factor, Howard didn’t accumulate much WAR either. CoG for Utley? i don’t think so
Utley’s career numbers are most similar among expansion era second baseman to those of Bobby Grich. Main difference in their numbers is Grich having 50% more walks and 10% more WAR. Utley makes up for the walks deficit to some degree with more than twice as many HBP (204 to 86).
Here are the top 5 (by WAR) expansion era second basemen who are not (yet?) in the Hall of Fame. Grich and Whitaker are in the COG.
Doug, that is one ugly mess of numbers.
Sorry it doesn’t display properly for you.
Here it is as an image.
#1 Adrian Beltre
Sorry; looks like Beltre DH’d a good deal with Texas and only got to ~950 games with LA
Mea culpa
#14: Charlie Lindstrom of the White Sox on 9/28/1958.
#29: Randy Choate in 2012 with 80 appearances.
#42: Gerrit Cole.
#35: Vladimir Guerrero Jr. with 104 HR.
#30: Zoilo Versalles 1963, 1964 (tied) and 1965.
Secondary: Williams, Dawson, Helton
Main: A. Jones, Lyons, Dahlen
#17 Shane Bieber ?
Looks like Bieber in 2020 and Corey Kluber in 2017 both fit as answers to #17.
Geeze, where are Siebert and McDowell when you need them?
#4 – Magglio Ordonez
#45: Fred Kendall?
#36: Ron Perranoski in 1969 (75 games pitched)
Perranoski was also the first Dodger to pitch in 70+ games, in 1962.
#38: George Zuverink had all of his 9 CG in 1954 but I don’t know if it is a record.
#25 Jim Edmunds in 2004
#12: Ewell Blackwell stood 6’6” (an inch shorter than Aaron Harang) and led the NL in 1947 with 22 wins, 23 CG, and 193 strikeouts.
Good work on the quiz questions. All correct so far.
#43: Ron Fairly in 1973 with OPS+ of 142.
Not Fairly. He was the Expos’ left fielder that year.
AL OLIVER 1982 ?
Oliver that year became the oldest player (at 35) to lead his league in H, RBI and BA (he also led in 2B and TB). One of only 8 seasons by age 35+ players with .300 BA, 100 RBI, 200 H and 300 TB (Babe Ruth missed by one hit in 1931).
http://www.highheatstats.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/100-RBI-200-H-300-TB-.300-BA-Age-35.jpg
Honorable mention to Bill Buckner (1985) who met the other requirements but failed to hit .300, one of only ten sub-.300 seasons by players of any age with 200 hits.
#40: Hal Carlson in 1922 with an ERA of 5.70.
#39: Haven’t found anyone with five seasons yet. John Halama had four seasons with the Mariners of 15+ starts without a losing record in any of them.
Halama is the answer, though he had only three seasons with 15+ starts.
Thank you. I looked at the games column instead of games started. Though if I had realized he only had three such seasons, I might not have even considered he could be the answer.
Halama is one of 19 pitchers (incl. Mathewson and Wainwirght) since 1901 with two 15+ start seasons with .575+ W-L% and ERA+ of 90 or less. No pitcher has more than two such seasons.
#7: Bill Sherdel with 5.93 in1929.
#15: Marquis Grissom, 1991 and 1992.
Main ballot: Nettles, Allen, Lyons
Secondary ballot: Coveleski, Boyer, Dawson
#1 Nettles and Gaetti ?
Correct. I amended the question after I realized I had miscounted Gaetti’s 3B games for the Twins.
I didn’t notice it until now, but the Peter Moylan season that I referenced in his quiz question is one of only 10 seasons leading a league in appearances by pitchers aged 38 or older. The more interesting question, I think, is who is the oldest of those 10 pitchers? Probably not who you might think.
I found Joe Heving with 63 appearances in 1944 at age 43.
You got it. Those 63 appearances were then one shy of Firpo Marberry’s AL record.
Heving’s other claim to fame is having the best W-L% (.706) among 124 pitchers with 500+ IP aged 36+. Heving’s 700.2 IP ranks third among relievers (80% of appearances) in that group, behind Wilhelm and Jeff Fassero (whose IP are juiced by two seasons as a starter over that period).
Todd Helton home/road:
.345 / .441 / .607 / 1.048
.287 / .386 / .469 / .855
WAR: 4 times in the top 10. Once in the top 5 (2000, when he led the league).
I believe Helton’s road slash line is very similar to Walker’s away from Colorado slash line and their OPS “ratios” home/away are similar (120/80 vs 119/80)
For the 1995 thru 2004 seasons playing for Colorado, Walker was:
Home: .384 /.464 /.716 /1.179
Away: .280 /.385 /.514 /.899
.384 /.464 /.716 /1.179 !! That’s like Stan Musial in 1948 (his greatest season), Ted Williams 1957, Jimmie Foxx 1932, Gehrig 1930, 1934… I believe, overall, for his entire career away from Colorado (including as a visitor with MTL and STL), Walker may have been .280/.380/.503 ? For his career, Walker had a 141 OPS+. This 141 OPS+ coincides with his 1992 season in MTL where he slashed .301/.353/.506 in 143 games. The Phillies aggressively pursued Gregg Jeffries in free agency in lieu of Walker. Does Larry make it to Cooperstown playing in Philadelphia? I dunno, but he’s in now
Minnie Minoso: 5.7 WAR in an age 27 rookie season.
Dick Allen: 8.8 WAR in 1964 rookie season at age 22 ? Allen’s rookie season is probably top 3 all time with Joe Jackson and Mike Trout
BR has gone all-in with the “Negro Leagues are Major Leagues” mantra, so much so that AL or NL rookie seasons by players from those leagues no longer show up as rookie seasons when running queries. So, with that caveat, here is what BR shows as the best rookie WAR seasons in the AL or NL.
Kind of odd that Joe Jackson exceeded his rookie “limits” in 1910 with only 20 games played and a mere 86 plate appearances. I thought the threshold was 90 PA’s or 45 innings pitched in a season? Perhaps it’s cumulative?
I believe there are two parts to it, as in:
maximum G or PA or IP in a season
OR maximum days (cumulative across seasons) on a major league roster
So, the first season that you reach either threshold is your rookie season.
Tulowitski came in 2nd in ROY with 6.8 WAR
2.0 Braun
6.8 Tulo
5.2 oWar / -32 Rfield
3.7 oWar / +31 Rfield
Evidently, in 2007:
-WAR hadn’t caught on yet as a go to stat for player evaluation.
-But, suspicion of offensive stats for Rockie players certainly had
Still, anyone who saw Braun try to place 3rd base that season had to come away with the impression that he was costing his team a lot on defense. But, offense sells tickets and, evidently, garners awards votes.
Somewhere in one of his musings/writings, Bill James indicated something to the effect of “just letting Braun stand on third base and scoring seven runs a game and see if the other team can out-score you”. This, while Prince Fielder was doing his best possible Dick Stuart imitation at 1B.
Doug, regarding the inherent exclusion of rookie seasons due to the “Negro Leagues are Major Leagues mantra”, I don’t know if any of the guys who played in the immediate post-integration period would have made the list above.
1947 4.1 Jackie Robinson
1948 4.6 Larry Doby
1948 2.2 Campanella
1949 5.5 Don Newcombe
1950 3.2 Sam Jethroe
1952 4.3 Joe Black
1955 3.2 Sam Jones
This is not to imply that if Josh Gibson made 650 plate appearances for the 1935 Pittsburgh Pirates (or any other ML team) he wouldn’t have made this list; it’s merely a matter of data not being available and, from that sparse data, very little counting stats like WAR can be achieved by players from that pre-integration era of the Negro Leagues. The short list is top of my head type stuff and I just couldn’t come up with many American Leaguers like Bob Boyd (3.6 WAR at age 37 later in his ML career).
You’re quite right that there aren’t many. Presumably, Minoso’s season is the best.
I remember in a previous post, I tried to find players with a reasonable number of games in the Negro Leagues and in the AL or NL, and it was a pretty short list. Because early integration, aside from a few clubs, was quite limited (or entirely lacking), most of the early black stars in the AL/NL spent little or no time in the Negro leagues.
I had long thought that Doby had an argument for MVP in 1954 but it appears Minoso’s claim is not without merit.
Stan Covelski: 9 seasons in the top 10 for Pitcher WAR. 6 times in the top 3,
Three CG victories in the 1920 WS
Donald Drysdale: 8 seasons in the top 10 for Pitcher WAR.
5 in the top 3.
Twice led the league.
5.8 WAR with the bat.
Secondary Ballot:
Covelski
Drysdale
Minoso
Main Ballot:
Dick Allen
Carlos Beltran
Chse Utley
I think this is my first time voting for Allen. Trying to answer the question of who on this list was “great”. We have a lot of defensive greats here, and pitchers who accumulated WAR in part because of extreme park factors. I’ll give Allen the nod for being a truly great hitter.
Utley deserves some time to be considered. Top 3 in WAR for five consecutive years.
Beltran did everything well: speed, power, defense, got on base, post season heroics.
Main: Allen, Beltran, Dahlen.
Secondary: Helton, Minoso, Billy Williams
#3: Figuring Roy Face’s .947 W-L% in 1959 didn’t meet the spirit of your question, I found Aaron Sanchez (.882, with 17 decisions in 30 starts) in 2016. Since going 15-2 in his age-23 season , Sanchez has a 14-28 record with five teams and is currently a free agent.
Aaron Sanchez? Wasn’t he on the Food Channel:
https://www.foodnetwork.com/profiles/talent/aaron-sanchez/bio
i dunno….
Ha! Apparently a fact I overlooked…
Aaron needs to be careful with knives in the kitchen.
His career got derailed, not in small part, by a susceptibility to cuts on his fingers (no doubt from gripping his slider harder for ever more rpm) that shortened many a start, and knocked him out of the rotation for far longer than you might expect.
#46: Kevin Brown, 2.38 ERA
In one season (1998) as a Padre, and a big reason why the Friars were NL champs that year.
Kevin went up the freeway to LA after that campaign and continued pitching very well, when he was healthy.
For the 1978 election, I’m voting for:
-Carlos Beltran
-Don Sutton
-Willie Randolph
Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Guerrero
-Rolen
-Jones
-Utley
-Tiant
-Reuschel
-Nettles
-Allen
-Wallace
-Dahlen
-Lyons
-Sheffield
Thanks!
For the Secondary Ballot, I’m voting for:
-Todd Helton
-Lance Berkman
-Andre Dawson
Thanks!
Main: Betran, Ortiz, Sheffield
Secondary: Helton, Minoso, Williams
#8: I came up with Zack Greinke, .511 in the AL and .712 in the NL.
Good find, Richard. I had it in my head that the answer – like with Zito – would have a sub-.500 record in one league. Greinke has put together a really solid career.
Greinke (2011-17) and Christy Mathewson (1907-13) are the only pitchers to record 7 straight seasons of 25+ starts with a .650+ W-L%. Mathewson has a record 10 such seasons overall, one more than Greinke, Verlander, Maddux, Clemens and Ford.
At the .700 level with 25 starts, Sabathia’s 7 seasons are the most, with Greinke, Scherzer, Unit, Clemens, Ford and Grove one behind, and Pedro and Mathewson two back.
Greinke’s .511 in the AL came after a 21-35 record over his first four seasons. He then went 67-44 for the Royals, Angels and Astros, before his 4-9 season in KC last year.
Greinke is expected to ink another 1 year FA deal with the Royals for 2023, so the book is not closed on him. I expect, though, that his record W-L% difference between leagues is pretty safe.
Main ballot:
Sutton, Dahlen,Guerrero
Secondary:
Drysdale, Irvin, Abreau
#9 Dean Chance. 1964, 1.65 ERA
Chance is one of only 14 live ball era pitchers with career ERA under 3 in 2000+ IP.
#5: Is it Tony Taylor? I counted 1003 games for him at second base with the Phillies.
Correct.
Taylor recorded single digit, non-zero HR totals for a record 18 straight seasons.
Taylor had more HR, BB and SO, but his other career numbers look a lot like those of teammate Larry Bowa (click on the image to bring it into focus).
And in second place with 17 consecutive seasons of single digit, non-zero HR is Warren Spahn.
Nice one. 🙂
Wow! I never would have guessed Spahn had that kind of streak. Then again, I’m surprised Taylor had 18 consecutive years of non-zero single digit homers.
Doug, Taylor’s and Bowa’s numbers do look a lot alike.
Also Brad Ausmus with 17 consecutive seasons.
Just noticed Ty Cobb had 16 consecutive seasons.
And 16 for Red Ruffing.
#10: Rube Marquard (Giants, 1912) and Waite Hoyt (Yankees, 1921).
Hoyt is correct, but not Marquard, as he made his WS debut the year before with starts that do not meet the stated criteria.
Forgot to check that.
How about Jim Lonborg for the Cardinals in 1967?
It was Lonborg for the Red Sox, but you’ve got the right guy.
Hoyt and Lonborg both had CG wins in their first two starts, and both started the final game of the series as well. Hoyt was a hard luck 1-0 loser in a third CG, and Lonborg ran out of gas on two days rest, getting shelled for 7 runs.
#18: Chris Bootcheck
#18: Tony Watson from 2014-2018.
Richard, you meant Tony Watson for the answer to question #13 (longest streak of seasons with 70+ games, 115+ ERA+ and BB/9 under 3), right?
Yes, I did mean #13. Thanks for the correction.
#26: Burt Shotton was also in his age 31 season when leading the AL in CS and BB in 1916. The oldest I could find leading his league in both categories, though, was Brett Butler at 34 leading the NL in 1991.
Butler is correct.
His .392 OBP aged 33+ ranks 5th in the expansion era among players with 1000+ games over that part of their careers.
#21: Dick Allen in 1967.
#16: Had thought of Terry Steinbach a few days ago but dismissed the possibility without checking – likely because he had seasons with 494, 491, 489, and 488 PAs. In fact, aside from a cup of coffee in 1986 and his qualifying 1996 season at age 34, his 12 other seasons were remarkably consistent with at least 380 PA in each.
Actually, Steinbach had two qualifying seasons, the 1996 season you mentioned and also in 1994 when he caught in 93 of Oakland’s 114 games.
Ah, yes – thank you for the reminder. I also forgot to account for the slightly shorter (144-game) 1995 season. But at 440 PA it looks like he was just short of the 446 needed. That projects to 495 PA in a 162-game season, which fits right in with the others.
How about Gregg Zaun?
#44 Alberto Callaspo.
Callaspo played 146 games at 2B in 2009 and led all second sackers with 17 errors. After that season, he played only 95 of 785 games at 2B.
#20: Bobby Bonilla with the O’s and the Mets.
Most Strikeouts in a Season, by Age
17 Bob Feller 76 (1936)
18 Bob Feller 150 (1937)
19 Dwight Gooden 276 (1984)
20 Dwight Gooden 268 (1985)
21 Vida Blue 301 (1971)
22 Sam McDowell 325 (1965)
23 Jim Maloney 265 (1963)
24 Walter Johnson 303 (1912)
25 Nolan Ryan 329 (1972)
26 Nolan Ryan 383 (1973)
27 Nolan Ryan 367 (1974)
28 Gerrit Cole 326 (2019)
29 Sandy Koufax 382 (1965)
30 Nolan Ryan 341 (1977)
31 Mike Scott 306 (1986)
32 Bob Gibson 268 (1968)
33 Max Scherzer 300 (2018)
34 Randy Johnson 329 (1998)
35 Randy Johnson 364 (1999)
36 Randy Johnson 347 (2000)
37 Randy Johnson 372 (2001)
38 Randy Johnson 334 (2002)
39 Phil Niekro 248 (1978)
40 Randy Johnson 290 (2004)
41 Nolan Ryan 228 (1988)
42 Nolan Ryan 301 (1989)
43 Nolan Ryan 232 (1990)
44 Nolan Ryan 203 (1991)
45 Nolan Ryan 157 (1992)
46 Phil Niekro 149 (1985)
47 Phil Niekro 81 (1986)
48 Phil Niekro 64 (1987)
49 Jamie Moyer 36 (2012)
58 Satchel Paige 1 (1965)
Nolan Ryan at age 25-27 and 41-45
And also age 30 for Ryan.
Interesting list. I suppose Maloney is the most surprising name. He never led his league in SO, and his majors-leading 9.5 SO/9 in the season cited is the only time he led in that category. Other surprise is Koufax appearing only once.
Age 23 and 32 seasons look like outliers now.
Al Jackson in 1964 and 1965.
That’s for question #28.
Those two seasons marked the end of Jackson’s four year stint with the Mets, with progressively declining ERA+ scores of 94, 87, 83 and 81, and bookended by a pair of 8-20 seasons (only Red Ruffing and Jackson’s Met teammate Roger Craig also have two 20 loss seasons with W-L% under .300).
Meanwhile, in St. Louis, the Cardinals soured on the now 34 year-old Ken Boyer, coming off easily his worst season in at least 8 years. So, after the ’65 season, the Mets and Cards swap third sackers, with 27 year-old Charley Smith going to St. Loo (Smith had swatted 36 HR in two seasons in NY, but also whiffed 100+ times each year while slugging under .400 despite those HR). And, Jackson gets tossed into the deal with doubtful prospects of making a dent in a Cardinal rotation that already has a pair of lefties in Curt Simmons and Ray Sadecki.
Now into the ’66 season, and the Cards pilfer Orlando Cepeda from the Giants in early May in a straight up trade for Sadecki, elevating Jackson to the rotation. Jackson responds with a shutout of the Braves in his first start for the Redbirds and by July, with Jackson pitching to a 2.42 ERA and holding batters to a .221 BA as a starter, St. Louis decides they can part with Simmons who is shipped to the Cubs, pushing Jackson to the no. 2 rotation spot behind Gibson. For the season, Jackson compiles 4.0 WAR (his career WAR is 5.6) and posts a 2.51 ERA (144 ERA+), 1.75 runs better than his career era before the season began. Alas, lightning seldom strikes twice and Jackson regressed to his former self in ’67, posting a 5.44 ERA over his first 8 starts before a demotion to the bullpen. After the season, he wound up back with the Mets as a PTBNL in a trade made back in July (that brought veteran Jack Lamabe to the Cards to bolster their bullpen for the pennant run).
And, how did the swap of third sackers go? The Mets got a couple of serviceable seasons out of Boyer totaling 3.6 WAR, before sending him to the Cubs for 21 year-old prospect Bill Southworth (in a deal that brought J.C. Martin to NY as a PTBNL). Charley Smith washed out in one 1.5 WAR season with the Cards, who were fortunate to unload him straight up for Roger Maris who made big contributions (5.9 WAR big) in a supporting role in the Cards’ pennant-winning seasons in ’67 and ’68.
Current voting totals:
Main ballot:
4 – Beltran
3 – Allen
2 – Dahlen, Sutton
1 – Guerrero, Lyons, Nettles, Ortiz, Randolph, Sheffield, Utley
Secondary ballot:
3 – Helton, Minoso
2 – Coveleski, Dawson, Drysdale, Williams
1 – Abreu, Berkman, Boyer, Irvin
Voting closes Sunday night.
Primary Ballot:
Beltran
Rolen
Dahlen
Secondary Ballot:
Minoso
Boyer
Coveleski
I want to add my votes to the CoG main ballot:
Dahlen, Lyons, Wallace,
There hasn’t been much discussion of vote choices–I think only Voomo explained his votes. I argued for Dahlen and Wallace for years here. Apart from the fact that they are the two clear WAR leaders on this ballot, my thinking is that the outstanding players of the decade starting in 1893 were basically the founders of the modern game. (Wallace, for example, invented the pivot infield throw, recognizing that the traditional pause to straighten up before throwing was costing missed outs in the speedier game of the ’90s.) Dahlen and Wallace were both shortstops who were outstanding in the field and above average at the plate (despite, for Wallace, the fact that he started as a full-time pitcher), which was a rare combination. The argument against them is sometimes that their stats should be discounted because they played in a segregated era with less competition; it’s a real argument, but one that was true for almost half of baseball history, and it’s particularly hard to estimate the impact in the earliest period of modern baseball.
I’m adding Lyons because I see he may slip off the ballot in the normal course of events, and I think he has a strong case (as I’ve bloviated on often over the years, so I won’t again).
On the secondary ballot: Ashburn, Coveleskie, and Drysdale
All three, I think, have been on the primary ballot in the past. I’m not sure how they’ve come to teeter at the edge of the secondary ballot. Perhaps some of these names from longer ago need advocates each year, since fewer and fewer people remember rooting for or against them.
I’ll echo Bob’s sentiments with my votes.
Main: Dahlen, Wallace, Jones
Dahlen
-75 WAR
-Only he, Ripken and Lou Boudreau played 75% of games at SS with 100+ Rbat and 100+ Rfield
Wallace
-76 WAR
-8 straight seasons (1901-08) at SS with 3+ oWAR and 1+ dWAR, second longest streak behind Pee Wee Reese (10)
-10 seasons at SS overall with 3+ oWAR and 1+ dWAR, tied with Ripken, one behind Reese and Appling
Jones
-Top 5 (surely) defensive outfielder all-time. dWAR has him #1, with one-third more dWAR than any other outfielder
-10 straight seasons (1998-2007) with 25+ HR and 1+ dWAR, longest streak by any player. Next longest is only 7 seasons, by Willie Mays (1960-66) and Johnny Bench (1969-75).
Secondary: Drysdale, Ashburn, Minoso
Drysdale – 67 WAR, 200+ wins, almost 2500 K’s. Black ink level only about 2/3 of average HoFer, but considering he was going up against Koufax, Marichal and Gibson almost every year, he did well to be that close.
Ashburn – No power, but his game had everything else. Definitely a highly unusual career, to wit:
-one of 5 players all-time (incl. Bobby Wallace) with 25+ career HR and more than twice as much WAR as HR
-one of 5 live ball era players with 1000+ BB and fewer than 50 HR
-only integration era player with 5000+ PA career incl. .300 BA/.390 OBP and ISO under .100
-one of 3 players all-time with .300 BA/.400 OBP in 450+ PA final season (excl. banned players).
Minoso – on-base machine, one of 4 players with .400 OBP in 1000+ G for 1950-59 decade. Minoso, Jackie Robinson, Ichiro, Bob Johnson and Earl Averill are only players with 50+ WAR aged 27-40 and none before that age.
Persuasive on Minoso, Doug. Sorry I delayed until it was too late to change my vote. I actually neglected to look at the vote totals for the secondary ballot. If I’d realized that two of the players I’d voted for already had the support needed to stay on the ballot, I’d have shifted to Minoso and probably Monte Irvin. If the case for Irvin hasn’t been repeated in recent years it probably should be. He’s probably the best example of a player whose value is hidden by his career being bisected by the removal of the color barrier. (I think it was mosc who was Irvin’s most effective advocate.)
One day of voting to go.
Here are the current results.
Main ballot
5 – Beltran, Dahlen
3 – Allen
2 – Lyons, Sutton, Wallace
1 – Guerrero, Jones, Nettles, Ortiz, Randolph, Rolen, Sheffield, Utley
Secondary ballot
5 – Minoso
4 – Coveleski, Drysdale
3 – Helton
2 – Ashburn, Boyer, Dawson, Williams
1 – Abreu, Berkman, Irvin
#41: Terry Pendleton
#27: Dan Quisenberry with four.
Answers to the remaining quiz questions are:
#16 – Gregg Zaun recorded the lone qualified season of his career catching for the Blue Jays in 2005 at age 34.
#19 – Todd Van Poppel posted a 9.06 ERA in a 1996 season including 15 starts and 22 relief appearances.
#22 – Babe Ruth batted .376 with 36 doubles and 54 HR in 1920, while playing 32, 25 and 84 games in LF, CF and RF, respectively.
#23 – Cesar Tovar hit 46 HR in a 1488 game career including 200+ games at 2B, LF and CF (he also played 200+ games at 3B and RF)
#24 – Brad Ziegler recorded an .850+ W-L% and 150+ ERA+ in 50+ games, all in relief, in both 2012 and 2013 (like Juan Cruz, the subject of this question, Ziegler recorded this feat as a Diamondback)
#31 – Pat Seerey hit 86 HR and drove in 261 runs in a 561 game career from 1943 to 1949, including 291, 100 and 141 games in LF, CF and RF, respectively.
#32 – Bill Sampen recorded 22 wins over 246 IP for the Expos in 1990-92
#33 – Carmen Hill recorded 200+ ERA+ in 40+ IP seasons for the Pirates in 1915 and 1918 (later Hill would become the first pitcher to start the last game of the World Series and strike out as many Yankees as IP)
#34 – Ernie Lombardi batted .300+ with .800+ OPS in 120+ games each season from 1935 to 1937, while recording fewer than 477 PA in each of those years
#37 – Cap Peterson recorded -1.1 oWAR and -1.7 dWAR in a career of 536 games and 1289 PA from 1962 to 1969, including 263 games as a pinch-hitter