Carl Crawford / Presswire
Following on Graham’s original post (which itself expands on an idea tweeted by Buster Olney), I’ve decided to go through baseball’s 30 teams and talk about who might be on each team’s Mount Rushmore.
Much like the real Mount Rushmore, the criteria used for selecting the 4 honorees isn’t totally straightforward. Just like with presidents, it’s tough to rate who was “best” in any measurable way, and similarly tough to figure who was most well-liked, most important, or most influential.
I’m also going to run down these teams in reverse order of length of franchise existence, so the first few are going to be toughest. You’ll see what I mean right away when we look at the Tampa Bay Rays.
Here are the top 15 batters for the Rays ranked by career WAR:
| Rk | Player | WAR/pos | From | To |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Carl Crawford | 33.2 | 2002 | 2010 |
| 2 | Evan Longoria | 27.6 | 2008 | 2012 |
| 3 | Ben Zobrist | 21.3 | 2006 | 2012 |
| 4 | Carlos Pena | 16.5 | 2007 | 2012 |
| 5 | Julio Lugo | 12.7 | 2003 | 2006 |
| 6 | B.J. Upton | 11.2 | 2004 | 2012 |
| 7 | Jason Bartlett | 10.4 | 2008 | 2010 |
| 8 | Aubrey Huff | 10.2 | 2000 | 2006 |
| 9 | Rocco Baldelli | 8.6 | 2003 | 2010 |
| 10 | Fred McGriff | 7.8 | 1998 | 2004 |
| 11 | Sean Rodriguez | 6.8 | 2010 | 2012 |
| 12 | Randy Winn | 6.4 | 1998 | 2002 |
| 13 | Akinori Iwamura | 5.7 | 2007 | 2009 |
| 14 | Matthew Joyce | 5.5 | 2009 | 2012 |
| 15 | Toby Hall | 4.6 | 2000 | 2006 |
When you get down to guys like Randy Winn and Toby Hall on your top 15, you know it’s slim pickings.
Anyway, from this list, Carl Crawford and Evan Longoria stand out right away as good candidates for the Ray’s Rushmore.
Here is the same list for pitchers:
| Rk | Player | WAR | From | To |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Scott Kazmir | 15.3 | 2004 | 2009 |
| 2 | James Shields | 14.8 | 2006 | 2012 |
| 3 | David Price | 9.0 | 2008 | 2012 |
| 4 | Matt Garza | 7.7 | 2008 | 2010 |
| 5 | Rolando Arrojo | 6.2 | 1998 | 1999 |
| 6 | Tanyon Sturtze | 5.2 | 2000 | 2002 |
| 7 | Roberto Hernandez | 4.7 | 1998 | 2000 |
| 8 | Jeremy Hellickson | 4.6 | 2010 | 2012 |
| 9 | Victor Zambrano | 4.4 | 2001 | 2004 |
| 10 | Albie Lopez | 4.2 | 1998 | 2001 |
| 11 | Jim Mecir | 3.9 | 1998 | 2000 |
| 12 | Wilson Alvarez | 3.7 | 1998 | 2002 |
| 13 | Grant Balfour | 3.5 | 2007 | 2010 |
| 14 | Rick White | 3.4 | 1998 | 2000 |
| 15 | Lance Carter | 3.2 | 2002 | 2005 |
Uh oh. With Scott Kazmir’s rapid demise as a quality pitcher, it’s tough to imagine selecting him, until we take a step back and realize that he was the first true ace pitcher this franchise ever had, and he did win a lot of games for the Rays during their dark period.
James Shields, as one of the top pitchers now, has to be in consideration too, as does David Price.
I think it’s also worth looking at 2008, when the Rays made it to the World Series. Their leader on offense that year was Carlos Pena, and he deserves a nomination. Troy Percival was also a big part of that team but had such a short overall tenure with the Rays that I can’t even put him on the list.
Ben Zobrist has actually had the two single-best seasons by WAR in franchise history, so let’s put him in the mix.
Let’s have a poll. You can choose any 4 players to put in the Ray’s Mount Rushmore.
why is it that only players are eligible. Joe Maddon would be a fine choice for these Rays.
Gosh that’s a great point. I will add him to the poll.
Pena is the HR leader by a wide stretch, and adding to it. Longoria is the most productive. Crawford leads in so many categories. The fourth is the hardest. What about B.J. Upton? He’s second in games played and first in,um…,um…strikeouts?
I voted for Ben Zobrist because I think he represents the Maddon-led tenure of the Rays as well as any player. To me I think the Mount Rushmore should only be for players, otherwise Maddon is definitely one of the top guys. Carlos Pena indeed has a long tenure with TB but it would be like putting Richie Sexson on a team’s Mount Rushmore; he’s just played too many other places and really isn’t that good of a player either.
Comedy Mount Rushmore of Wade Boggs, Jose Canseco, Fred McGriff, and Tony Saunders.
No room for Kevin Stocker and Greg Vaughn?
Manny Ramirez has to be at the top of the comedy list.
I´m not sure if he belongs in the comedy list, but how about “The Rookie”?
I agree about Zobrist. Besides being a very good player, his versatility and well-rounded game make him an excellent embodiment of the Maddon-era Rays. Crawford, Longoria, and Maddon were my other picks.
On behalf of all Mets fans, thanks for mentioning Kazmir and Victor Zambrano in such close proximity with their respective WAR.
Crawford, Longoria, Pena and Price (admittedly the last one is a little bit like picking Teddy Roosevelt in the 1920s, too soon to tell, but he seems like he will be worth putting on). I would replace Pena with Maddon if we are doing non-players.
How is this even close? There’s one guy that has been their foundation for years and may be the ONLY guy they will actually spend money to keep in the future. As he goes does the franchise.
I kinda think we should get it straight if we are going to do all 30 franchises about whether or not to include non-players such as managers, broadcasters, owners, etc. in these Mount Rushmores. Graham’s original idea was to include players only, and I didn’t vote for Maddon for that specific reason (otherwise I would have). I went with Longoria, Crawford, Zobrist, and Pena.
My tuppence I vote strongly against non-players because for most franchises it’s going to be tough narrowing it down to 6 or 7 guys, much less 4, and we don’t need player/mgr/owner/GM-types mucking it up.
Longoria, Crawford, Maddon are my top 3. Then I wanted a pitcher and chose James Shields.
If no manager allowed it would be a tough choice between Kazmir and Price for the 4th spot.
“I’m also going to run down these teams in reverse order of length of franchise existence, so the first few are going to be toughest.”
Actually I think the teams with the fewest reasonable candidates would be easier than teams that have been around over 100 years.
I think it will be tougher choosing the Yankees, Dodgers, Cardinals, Tigers, Giants, etc. Unless a team just happens to have exactly 4 people in their top tier.
Tmckelv, I’ve missed you as a regular in HHS, at least compared to the old B-Ref blogs. Don’t be a stranger.
I have to agree with you that the youngest franchises, not the oldest, will be the easiest to pick the top four stone carvings for.
Thanks Neil. I guess it has been harder to keep up the last few weeks. Must re-prioritize to spend more time on HHS. 🙂
The Rays are the only club that I can see putting a manager ahead of a player for that fourth spot. A decade from now, that may change, but right now Maddon is who I think of first when Tampa is mentioned.
Non-players should be eligible, but rare. In some cases, it’s definitely appropriate and more interesting, if we’re recognizing the best/most influential that franchises have to offer.
McGraw, Scully, Uecker, maybe even Veeck, Harwell, Finley, and in this case, Maddon? — all these guys are “faces of the franchise” who did a heckuva lot for their teams in terms of ticket sales, newspaper sales, influence, symbolism in general, the guys your grandparents always talked about, sometimes even winning games, longevity, etc.
The downside, of course, is that it makes it infinitely more difficult, esp. for the older teams. As much as i hate to take up two valuable Dodger spots with Scully and LaSorda, i feel you almost have to. That’s all part of the fun debate.
But i do think we should try to limit the faces to 4; none of this bending the rules with 4+1 stuff. We have serious work to do gentlemen 🙂
I would argue that except for maybe McGraw and Connie Mack no manager has been as much the “face” of the franchise as Casey Stengel was for the early Mets. With the exception of Tom Seaver no one individual has been associated with the franchise for as long as he was. Until the Miracle Mets came along when you thought about the Mets he was the first name that came to mind even long after he had left. Daryl Strawberry, Doc Gooden, Gary Carter- none left as long lasting legacy as ol’ Casey.
Besides, can you just imagine a 60 foot high image of that lovable mug of his?
Great example(s) Hartvig!
And speaking of lovable, but not exactly handsome, mugs, imagine this Mets all-manager (all-ugly) monument: Stengel, Berra, Torre and maybe Johnson (or even Oscar Madison). Just might be the mugliest monument ever!