This post is for voting and discussion in the 122nd round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG). This is the first of three rounds adding to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1972. Rules and lists are after the jump.
The new group of 1972-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This first group of 1972-born candidates, including those with A-G surnames, joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots. The remaining 1972-born candidates, with H-Z surnames, will be eligible to receive your votes in the next two rounds of balloting.
Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. As always, the one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.
All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EST Sunday, January 29th, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EST Friday, January 27th.
If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1972 Part 1 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1972 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.
Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The eleven current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1972 birth-year players are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.
Holdovers:
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Goose Goslin (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Dick Allen (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Wes Ferrell (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Bill Dahlen (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Andre Dawson (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Bobby Wallace (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Everyday Players (born in 1972, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR, A-G surname):
Garret Anderson
Juan Castro
Carlos Delgado
Cliff Floyd
Tony Clark
Shawn Green
Tony Graffanino
Paul Bako
Danny Bautista
David Bell
Gary Bennett
Einar Diaz
Pitchers (born in 1972, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR, A-G surname):
Armando Benitez
Brian Anderson
Scott Eyre
Antonio Alfonseca
Omar Daal
Keith Foulke
This round’s tidbits. Answers highlighted following questions.
1. Juan Castro played 17 seasons and failed to record 350 PA in any of them. Excluding pitchers and catchers, who is the only other player with such a career? Jim Dwyer
2. Garret Anderson played 100 games at a different outfield position for three consecutive seasons (1997-99). Which HOFer did the same? Stan Musial (1952-54)
3. Cliff Floyd played in the World Series for both Florida teams. Which player appeared in the World Series for both current Pennsylvania teams? Bobby Byrne
4. Carlos Delgado recorded his 400th double and 400th home run playing for the 2006 Mets. Who is the last player to reach those milestones in the same season? Mark Teixeira (2016)
5. Tony Clark is one of 5 players with three or more 30 home run seasons as a Tiger first baseman. Which one of the other four had fewer home runs for Detroit before age 30 than Clark? Norm Cash
6. Armando Benitez’s 3.29 FIP in 2004 is the highest in a 60 IP season with 300 ERA+. Benitez had been the only pitcher to record three 20 save seasons with H/9 under 5.0, until joined last year by Craig Kimbrel and Aroldis Chapman. Which other pitcher recorded those totals last season? Kenley Jansen
7. Shawn Green homered three times in a 2004 NLDS for the Dodgers. Who is the only player with more home runs in a single NLDS? Carlos Beltran (2004)
8. Scott Eyre is one of twelve left-handed pitchers with four seasons of 70 appearances and fewer than 70 IP. Which right-handed pitcher recorded four such seasons consecutively? Russ Springer (2006-09)
9. Tony Graffanino is the only player with 200 games for the Royals, Braves and White Sox. Which other second baseman played 200 games for the Royals and Braves? Keith Lockhart
10. Gary Bennett got a hit in his lone AB as a Met. Which other catcher did the same? Dave Liddell
11. Brian Anderson recorded three qualified seasons with HR/9 over 1.5. Who is the only pitcher with more such seasons? Jose Lima
12. Paul Bako played fewer than 100 games for 10 different teams, with his 789 career games the fewest of any non-pitcher to appear for so many franchises. Excluding pitchers, which other player averaged fewer than 100 games played per team for 10 or more franchises? Henry Blanco
13. David Bell played 400 games for the Phillies and Mariners. Which other player did the same? Raul Ibanez
14. Danny Bautista is the only player with a lone qualified season in the final year of a 10+ season career. Bautista’s 5 RBI in game 6 of the 2001 World Series are tied for the most in a WS game by an outfielder. Which other outfielders recorded 5 RBI in a World Series game against the Yankees? Pedro Guerrero (1981), Andruw Jones (1996)
15. Keith Foulke recorded 30 save seasons for three different teams. Who was the first closer to do this for four different teams? Lee Smith
16. Antonio Alfonseca’s BA, OBP, OPS and OPS+ against in 2000 are all worst in a league-leading 40 save season. Which pitcher has the worst ERA and ERA+ in such a season? Joe Borowski (2007)
17. Einar Diaz batted .270 in three consecutive seasons (1999-2001). Which other Indian catcher did the same in non-qualifying (modern definition) 250 PA seasons? Frankie Pytlak (1936-38)
18. Omar Daal led his league in losses in 2000, while playing for two NL teams. Which post-1901 pitcher recorded a season with double digit losses for two teams in the same league, but did not lead his league in losses? Tom Hughes (1904)
Thanks for getting the COG post up so quickly, Doug.
Question 4 (Carlson Delgado): I remember this coming up in HHS not too long ago. Wasn’t it Mark Teixeira who reached 400 doubles and home runs in the same season (2016)?
Bingo!
Apropos of nothing in particular, can you name the four players since 1901 to debut before their 19th birthdays and play their final game after turning 41? (there’s a connection to Teixeira)
Well, I’ve got Ty Cobb so far, and no one else…
Mike Morgan. Stink – this is hard!
Just found A-Rod, too. He barely made it past his 41st birthday – and presumably is the link to Teixeira?
Well, Alex Rod, of course.
Tyrus, Morgan, Alex Rod, and … almost Rusty Staub (debuted 8 days after turning 19)
The 4th one is something sneaky.
Has to be someone with a gap in his playing time.
You’re right about a gap in his career.
He was a pitcher who surrendered a home run in his final career game, that home run the last leg of a cycle for the batter (who had some pop but couldn’t stick in the majors because of his Butch Hobson-esque fielding percentage that was really bad news since he was an outfielder).
A more useful clue is that he is in a group with Pedro, Koufax, Marichal, Halladay, Newcombe, Mathewson and Guidry for an age 25-30 feat.
Bingo.
Wiki the list of guys who hit for the cycle.
Click on the obscure guys.
Roy Carlyle. 1925.
Hit the HR for his cycle off of…
Chief Bender.
Only 16 seasons in the bigs.
And only one game after age 33.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bendech01.shtml
Bender shares with the others in that stellar group the accomplishment of a .700 W-L% in 100+ decisions aged 25-30
16 (Alfonseca): Joe Borowski, 2007 (5.07 ERA = 89 ERA+)
Joe is our man.
#15 – Lee Smith? Cardinals, Cubs, Angels, Orioles by 1995.
Randy Myers did it by 1997.
#9 could be Omar Infante… played 200 games for ATL but not at 2B.
Not Infante.
The name I immediately thought was Keith Lockhart, but he has the same problem Infante does, but with the other team, he played 200 games for the KC, but not at 2B.
Is Lockhart the answer? I can’t think of anyone else who fits the criteria.
It is Lockhart. He played 200+ games for the Royals and Braves, and was primarily a second baseman for both teams. Infante also played 200+ games for those teams, but played only one-third of his games as a Brave at second base.
18. Omar Daal – In 1904, Tom Hughes lost 11 games for the Yankees and 12 for the Senators. His Senators teammate Happy Townsend, though, lost 26 to lead the AL. To prove the ineptitude of the Senators of that era, two of the three pitchers tied with Hughes’ 23 losses that year was ALSO theirs – Beany Jacobson, and Casey Patten Yikes.
That was Hughes’ second season with a 10-23 record, having posted those totals in his 308 IP rookie season (the most IP in his 13-year career) for the 1901 Chicago Orphans. In between, the well-traveled Hughes won 20 for the 1903 world champion Boston Americans; he got the game 3 start in the WS but was knocked out early (he was relieved by Cy Young) and took the loss.
7 (Green): Carlos Beltrán had 4 HR in the other 2004 NLDS.
Question #1: JIm Dwyer played 18 seasons and never had more than 292 PA.
Question #3: Bobby Byrne played for the Pirates in the 1909 WS and for the Phils in the 1915 WS.
Question #2: Stan Musial played 100+ games in CF (1952), LF (1953) and RF (1954).
Question # 10: Dave Liddell in 1990.
#5 (Tony Clark question): Norm Cash. The other three are Hank Greenberg, Rudy York, and Miguel Cabrera.
Question #14: I found 2 such players. Andruw Jones in game 1 of the 1996 WS and Pedro Guerrero in game 6 of the 1981 WS.
Jones is the youngest (by almost 6 years) and Guerrero the third youngest of 23 players with a 5+ RBI game in the WS.
Ted Kluszewski (1959) and Dan Gladden (1987) preceded Jones with 5 RBI in their World Series debut games.
Doug: I’m not sure if I understand question #12 but I came up with Henry Blanco for the answer.
It is Blanco, with 971 games for 11 franchises, an average of 88 for each one.
Question #17: Frank Pytlak 1936-1938
Oh happy day!
Christmas in January!
Gotta do a little research to figure out who my 3rd pick is going to be (I already know 1 & 2)
OMG, the return of the Kevin Brown debate. Just when you thought you were out…Doug pulls you back in. Between this and politics…..
Cracked me up Mike L.!
I’m glad it did. Been a rough week around here…
The holdover list doesn’t quite match. From Doug’s comment on the last thread http://www.highheatstats.com/2016/02/circle-of-greats-round-121-balloting/#comment-109128 :
Our holdover list then will be:
– Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
– Goose Goslin (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
– Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
– Dick Allen (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
– Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
– Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
– Bill Dahlen (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
– Andre Dawson (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
– Wes Ferrell (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
– Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
– Bobby Wallace (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
I evidently misspoke in that comment.
Andre Dawson was guaranteed eligibility only for that round 121 vote and, since he polled last of 14 candidates with less than 10% of the vote, he is dropped from the holdover list (as was Rick Reuschel who finished next to last in the voting).
I’m a little confused about how the vote rounded out in the previous round. Here is a post I see in which Dawson had 5 votes and was above 10%. I’m not sure if it was accurate, but the post by “e pluribus munu” implies that the totals listed are reflective of the final vote. I believe this was posted AFTER the point where votes couldn’t be changed, so there Dawson shouldn’t have been able to lose any votes beyond that point.
“e pluribus munu
It appears to me as though the CoG is rounded out with this final vote, reflecting 42 ballots:
23 – Hoyt Wilhelm*
====50% (21)
17 – Goose Goslin*
15 – Dave Winfield*
11 – Kevin Brown*
====25% (11)
10 – Wes Ferrell
8 – Dick Allen*
7 – Richie Ashburn, Luis Tiant
6 – Graig Nettles*
5 – Bill Dahlen, Bobby Wallace, Andre Dawson
====10% (5)
4 – Don Drysdale
3 – Rick Reuschel
0
Reply
10 months 30 days ago”
I’m not trying to cause any issues, but that was what I thought was the actual final vote, since I never saw anything correcting it.
Thanks!
First off, I want to make it absolutely clear that I am e pluribus munu — not my second cousin, “e pluribus munu” (I would never confuse opal611 with his infamous nephew “opal611”).
I just recounted and confirmed that Dawson did receive five votes, from Artie Z., MattG, opal611, JeffB, & bstar.
I think Drysdale, however, failed to qualify for the current ballot.
I, too, had Drysdale and Reuschel falling off.
I see my mistake. Didn’t realize that I was missing some of the comments (have to press the Load More Comments button at the bottom to get all of them).
I’ll update the holdover list.
“Thank you!” says opal611.
I usually go by oneblankspace rather than because it’s easier to click on. The quote mark versions would be “oneblankspace” vs. ” “.
The question is this: can you re-inflate a soufflé?
The ongoing discussion, argument and counterargument, presentation of statistics, and history of the voting as it progressed over time—such things shaped the impression of the holdover candidates on the voters, but now those things are far from fresh. True enough, some players, notable Kevin Brown and Dick Allen, carry their controversy with them, but—just to pick two players on the list—who really remembers the debate on Tiant or Nettles, especially the misgivings various commentators expressed, since the positives are easily accessed at B-Ref.
Any chance of re-running some threads of argument from the earlier voting?
Here is the link to the earlier COG threads.
http://www.highheatstats.com/?s=circle+of+greats&submit=#.Vum7veIrLcs
You can use the same query structure to search for player names.
For anyone wishing to refamiliarize themselves with some of the holdover candidates I highly recommend following Doug’s link and reading the comments section of the first post (other than this one) called Circle of Greats Recap.
Many of the comments are worth reading and I’d especially single out 3 by Dave Humbert at the very end of the comments section.
Meh. Discussion…I don’t need no stinkin’ discussion.
Nettles
Drysdale
Winfield
Yawn.
You’ll have to pick someone other than Drysdale. I had mistakenly included him the Holdover list, but he had dropped off after the last round.
Sorry for the confusion.
Tiant
Goslin, Brown, Dahlen
Keith Foulke had
5 seasons of 3+ WAR and
4 seasons of 3.5+ WAR
He’s in rare company.
No way to reverse-engineer the top results to that without a P-I subscription.
Would someone else mind looking it up?
Relief pitchers with most seasons of 3.5 or more WAR:
Mariano Rivera 8 seasons
Keith Foulke 4 seasons
7 guys tied with 3 seasons
Relief pitchers with most seasons of 3 or more WAR:
Mariano Rivera 11 seasons
Goose Gossage 6 seasons
Keith Foulke and John Hiller 5 seasons
Pitcher Win Probability Added, 1999-2004:
1. Pedro Martinez 30.4
2. Randy Johnson 27.8
3. Curt Schilling 22.6
4. Keith Foulke 20.0
5. Mariano Rivera 19.8
6. Armando Benitez 19.2
7. John Smoltz 17.4
8. Tim Hudson 17.2
9. Billy Wagner 16.1
10. Kevin Brown 15.4
Among relievers, only Mariano Rivera (11 and 8 seasons) tops Foulke in both categories. Rich Gossage had 6 seasons of 3 WAR, but only 3 were above 3.5 WAR.
I had completely forgotten about Foulke ever pitching for the White Sox, which is kind of inexcusable since his trade to Oakland was one of the major episodes that led to Billy Bean being almost deified as the consummate deal-maker, not to mention Kenny Williams being one of this favorite marks.
Goslin, Brown, Drysdale.
As Doug said to David P above, you’re going to have to change your vote, as Drysdale isn’t on the ballot.
Got it.
So, we’ll go with Goslin, Brown, and Ferrell
I can’t see voting for any of the new crop.
So hard to decide on the guys from 100+ years ago, especially when they dont have eye-popping offensive numbers. Going on longevity and defensive rep. But between Wallace and Dahlen, Dahlen seems to be a few ticks ahead.
A lot of other guys with longevity (and defense) on this list.
Dick Allen had neither. He’s out.
Choosing between Tiant, Drysdale, and Brown is a toss-up in some ways.
But I’m looking for dominance.
And what Brown did between 1996-2000 sets him apart from the other two.
Too hard to choose between Ashburn and Goslin.
And I’ll take another round to warm up to Nettles’ defense.
I will, however, disregard Winfield’s poor defensive stats, because I actually saw him play.
Vote:
Kevin Brown
Bill Dahlen
Dave Winfield
Oops.
Somehow I missed Ferrell.
I’ve been on the Ferrell train from the beginning.
Dude stretched 8 man lineups to 9, while being the 2nd best pitcher in the league.
So, while setting a possible record for fastest vote-change:
Vote:
Kevin Brown
Wes Ferrell
Dave Winfield
VOTE
Kevin Brown
Bill Dahlen
Luis Tiant
In the case of the current crop of 1972 births, I’m a little concerned that the alphabet may not be serving us well. We’ll be electing three players, but none of the three leaders in WAR is in the group listed in the current post. Those three are Chipper Jones (85.0), Manny Ramirez (69.2), and Andy Pettitte (60.9). All three are competitive within the current group of holdovers, and far above the leader in the current group of newbies (Delgado, at 44.3).
In past CoG rounds, when we were young and the world in springtime, I sometimes posted a summary comparative table of stats for viable candidates. Since I think there are no viable candidates among the 1972 crop, here is a table for the holdovers (I have included both Dawson, who I think should be eligible, and Drysdale, who I think should not be):
Pitchers
P(Tot)-WAR…Peak5…Top5…WAR/9IP…WAR/Yr…ERA+…Career length
68.5 (68.3)……37.0…37.0……0.189……4.0 (17)……127……1.24……Brown
61.2 (67.1)……29.8…32.1……0.160……4.4 (14)……121……1.31……Drysdale
48.8 (61.8)……29.9…36.0……0.168……4.9 (10)……116……1.00……Ferrell
66.1 (66.7)……28.7…34.7……0.171……3.9 (17)……114……1.33……Tiant
Position Players
WAR……Pk5……Top5……WAR/G…WAR/Yr……OPS+…Career length
58.7………31.5……36.7……0.034……4.2 (14)……156………1.0……Allen
63.6………31.6……32.7……0.029……4.2 (15)……111………1.3……Ashburn
75.2………22.6……29.8……0.031……4.0 (19)……110………1.4……Dahlen
64.4………32.4……33.7……0.025……3.4 (19)……119………1.5……Dawson
66.1………32.5……32.8……0.029……4.1 (16)……128………1.3……Goslin
68.0………28.7……32.2……0.025……3.4 (20)……110………1.4……Nettles
70.2………28.6……31.3……0.029……4.2 (17)……105………1.3……Wallace
63.8………26.9……28.6……0.021……3.0 (21)……130………1.7……Winfield
This gives a picture of total WAR (for pitchers, both pitching-only and true total; I didn’t do that for batters, which means I have to add the reminder that Wallace’s total would be 76.3 if his pitching stats were included), followed by two peak measures (best 5-year stretch and best five years). The WAR per year measure knocks off years with under a minimum number of games, and the career length stat at the end takes the shortest career among pitchers/batters as a baseline of 1.0.
I’m going to think about my own vote for a few more days, but I remain concerned about the tendency to underrate players from the turn of the last century (Dahlen and Wallace). I want time to remind myself of the arguments for Ferrell, who, I think, Hartvig was particularly effective in arguing for. My reservations about Brown remain what they were: large. I suppose I’ll restate them over the next few days.
Chipper will be on the Part 2 ballot, and Manny and Andy in Part 3.
Allen
Goslin
Winfield
My vote.
Wallace, Dahlen, Nettles
While it’s not generally advisable to pick two contemporaries at the same position in Wallace and Dahlen, it’s hard to pick one and not the other. At least they mostly played in different leagues. Among players who were primarily shortstops (I used 75% of games as my cutoff), those two are both in the top 9 in WAR, with only 6.3 WAR separating Wallace at number 9 from Ozzie at number 2 (adding in Wallace’s pitching WAR moves him to number 3, just ahead of Dahlen).
To those who disparage the two as “compilers”, nearly all of Wallace’s career WAR came in a 14 season stretch (1897-1910), so he wasn’t reaching COG level WAR totals by hanging on. That criticism may apply more to Dahlen whose best 14 year stretch netted only 60 WAR, a bit on the low side perhaps but certainly not a disqualifying total, especially for a shortstop.
And Nettles? Hey, the COG needs more third basemen. Yes, he wasn’t close to his contemporary Mike Schmidt, but Schmidt’s an inner circle selection, so no disgrace in not matching up. Nettles has the career totals (68 WAR), nice peak (51.7 WAR over 9 seasons, 6 seasons over 5 WAR and 3 more over 4 WAR) and the post-season credentials (2 world champions and 5 pennant winners).
My vote for the 122nd round will be sticking with my guys from the 121st round. I’m sorry we don’t have all the newcomers on the ballot right away, but there’s really only one I’m probably going to be voting for, anyway. So, without further ado:
Kevin Brown
Wes Ferrell
Luis Tiant
For the 1972 Part 1 election, I’m voting for:
-Dave Winfield
-Andre Dawson
-Luis Tiant
Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Brown
-Goslin
-Ashburn
-Nettles
-Allen
-Wallace
-Dahlen
Thanks!
Tidbit #13: Raúl Ibáñez.
Huzzah for the COG (and heck, the HOF, too)!
I’m finding it harder to vote for past MVPs than I did for the COG, so it’s good to get back to the COG. Thanks to Dr. Doom for the MVP votes, too; they are great reads, I just don’t feel qualified to vote on any one season, not without days of research (and maybe a time machine).
That said, this is pretty hard, too; especially going back to the same never-ending battles. I don’t think I would have guessed that this was how Doug would decide to do it, but it 3 rounds for 1 year is elegant in its simplicity and does give a holdover a real chance to get in, too. I’m going for:
Luis Tiant: a great career, good story and personality, and a case for being the best pitcher in The Year of the Pitcher. Even with 3 years of being average right in the middle as good a career as Brown’s without any of the baggage.
Dick Allen: no hitter on this ballot comes close to his 156 OPS+, until Round 3 when Manny Ramirez turns up (154 OPS+). I know he didn’t have enough longevity or play enough defense, but I don’t think he was a bad teammate; if he was, why did the Phillies want him back when they were starting to build a great team at the end of Allen’s career?
Carlos Delgado: I just can’t go a whole “1972” round without voting a player born in 1972, so this is sort of a special case shout out to my pick for the best new player on this ballot… 400+ Doubles and 473 Home Runs is nothing to sneeze at
I can’t decide between Wallace and Dahlen, but I think they both deserve to be in, along with Wes Ferrell, and probably Nettles, too. There were a lot stats based writers’ gripes about being limited to a 10 person ballot. Have they ever tried a 3 person ballot, with 3 rounds and 3 spaces total whole election? I think the BBWAA did well this year, and they narrowly missed 4 electees, although of course the COG has already passed on Hoffman.
Goslin, Ferrell, Ashburn
I’m going to cast an initial vote, and remain open to change after listening to arguments: Dahlen, Ferrell, Goslin
I want to add an argument myself: why I continue to be unwilling to vote for Kevin Brown. The basic problem with Kevin Brown, as we’ve discussed often enough, is PEDs. I know some really good HHS posters have decided that PEDs have to be put aside, but I don’t share that view. This isn’t about the ethics of PEDs: I don’t see PED use as disqualifying. I would vote for a Bonds or Clemens for the CoG (or HoF), but that would be because I’m confident that their CoG qualifications don’t depend on PEDs. In Brown’s case, I think it’s almost certain that he was basically not a CoGworthy player, but that PEDs raised him to the CoG-borderline status he now occupies. Brown was listed by the Mitchell Report as a PED user, and while the positive evidence for this pertains only to the last years of his career, we have no way of knowing whether his use began earlier. We know that some of Brown’s record was influenced by PED use, though we don’t know how much. Therefore, in the case of a statistically comparable CoG candidate, like Tiant, I don’t see how it would be possible to rate Brown higher, unless we dismiss the issue of PED use entirely.
Exactly the point: Bonds and Clemens established HOF credentials before the steroids rage. Brown, in contrast, was a good but not great pitcher through his age 30 season, then suddenly his stats exploded just coincidentally when his PED use appears to have begun. If it didn’t happen that way, if the stars just aligned themselves, or he developed a new pitching method, or whatever, I’d be highly surprised. Dazzy Vance had an arm operation that made him a new pitcher at age 30, so such things can happen, but . . .
epm has pretty much summed up my thinking on the subject as well.
Along with Brown I would lump McGwire, Palmeiro, Sosa, Sheffield and Manny Ramirez into the same category. With most of these guys I remain amendable to being persuaded otherwise but it would have to be a pretty compelling argument I haven’t heard already.
What troubles me is if I am making adequate adjustments for the guys who apparently didn’t cheat- like Fred McGriff or Kirby Puckett.
VOTE UPDATE!
(It feels really good to write those words.)
Through 12 ballots (though now, without numbered comments, it’s much, much harder to do this):
=================50% (6)
5 – Kevin Brown, Wes Ferrell, Goose Goslin, Luis Tiant*
4 – Bill Dahlen*, Dave Winfield
=================25% (3)
2 – Dick Allen, Graig Nettles
=================10% (2)
1 – Richie Ashburn*, Andre Dawson*, Carlos Delgado*, Bobby Wallace*
* = on the bubble; all holdovers have received at least one vote each
Time to vote.
1) Ferrell (probably no surprise there)
2) Nettles
3) Ashburn
1 & 2 are both within my 5 most deserving of COG inclusion of people that we have already voted on, possibly the top 3 (when they’re this close it’s hard to have any absolutes). I’d guess that spots 6 thru 10 are all on the ballot except for maybe Buddy Bell who might sneak in towards the bottom.
I’m not unmindful of emp’s concerns that we may be underrating- or at least under-appreciating- some of the earlier players, specifically Dahlen & Wallace (as well as a couple others that are no longer on the ballot). I’m more comfortable with Dahlen, if only because it’s much easier to quantify offensive value at this removed a distance than defensive. But Dahlen seems secure and between Ashburn & Wallace I’m much more comfortable with the defensive rankings for the former rather than the latter.
Allen, Ferrell, Tiant
Kevin Brown, Dave Winfield and Goose Goslin
Graig Nettles, Bill Dahlen and Bobby Wallace
The COG holdovers for this round have surprisingly uniform WAR levels, and that may be why there is little consensus in the voting thus far. None of the new additions to the list are on a par with any of the holdovers, making this a very important election, insofar as future votes most often won’t be so kind to the older players.
What I see is a group of three similar players, Nettles, Dahlen, and Wallace, great infield gloves who could hit; four outfielders who could really hit—Goslin, Winfield, Ashburn, Dawson; three pitchers of about the same value with disparate talents—Brown, Ferrell, and Tiant; and Dick Allen, aka Rogers Hornsby Lite.
I’m going to eliminate Brown from my comments here for reasons often expressed by myself and others. In fact, I’m going to omit the other two pitchers as well, since the compelling argument in Ferrell’s case for inclusion in the COG rests on the added value of his bat, and Tiant’s career is difficult to get a handle on.
Nettles, Dahlen, Wallace—a modern bias views Nettles as the outstanding bat of the three, but in fact both Dahlen and Wallace are credited with more oWAR in far fewer games played, and as for career OPS+, his 110 is matched by Dahlen, and Wallace comes in at only 5 points lower.
In a screed long ago I compared Nettles to Ashburn, who had a higher OPS+ in 500 fewer games played despite his meager 29 career HRs and who was a record setting center fielder, despite the peculiar interpretation of his stats by dWAR. My conclusion was that Ashburn was the better player, his lack of power notwithstanding. I think that goes for Dahlen and Wallace as well. Nettles was a quipster and a fan favorite in memory of many the voters, and he played his best for the Yankees in pennant years, but, to my mind he isn’t the best player on the list or even in the top three.
The four outfielders:
Winfield is the weakest candidate, his performance being based on longevity and a steady bat and undermined by what that weird stat dWAR sees as terrible fielding, despite his 6 Gold Gloves. One thing is, he looked like a ballplayer.
Ashburn: leadoff hitter, great fielder, led the position players on the Phillies 8 times in WAR, was 2nd to Banks one year on the Cubs, and 2nd his last year on the miserable Mets, playing 2/3 time.
Andre Dawson: A long, valuable career marred by injury, with lots of ups and downs. Took very few walks. A great fielder early on, good later. Led position players on his teams in WAR twice in Montreal and twice in Chicago. Seldom viewed as the best player on his team, what with Carter and Raines and Sandburg as competition. Less oWAR than Ashburn in over 400 more games played.
Goslin: Goslin doesn’t get talked about much here, so I’ll go against the grain. Looking at WAR for position players in the AL for the five years from 1924 to 1928: Babe Ruth was 1st four times, Harry Heilmann once in 1925, the year Ruth was ill. In three of those years, 1924, -25, and -26 Goslin finished technically third but in a virtual tie for 2nd rounded off with Heilmann, Al Simmons, and Lou Gehrig. In 1927 he dropped to 7th in the league, the Yankee onslaught putting four players in the top five, but in 1928, the Goose trailed only Ruth and Gehrig. Goslin, in other words, was probably, with a nod to Heilmann, the second (or third) best player in the AL for that five year stretch, but his competition was Ruth and Heilmann at their peaks and Cobb, Speaker, and Collins in their decline, plus Simmons and Gehrig in their blossoming.
Goslin led the position players on the Senators in WAR all five years, each year by at least two full points (the Browns for 3 years as well), and it ought to be remembered that these were the glory years of that franchise, with two pennants and a series victory. Goslin’s power figures are deceptive because of the really cavernous dimensions of Griffith Stadium in those times. Traded in June 1930 to the Browns, he finished with 37 HRs. Goslin was fast, an outstanding fielder through his twenties, and he played an important role on five pennant winners. His closest comp in the COG is Al Simmons, and I have argued elsewhere that, had they switched ballparks at the start of their careers, it might well be Simmons who trails Goslin by a small statistical margin in many categories, rather than the other way around. In 1936 the were both in the Tiger outfield, Goslin at age 35, Simmons at age 34. Goslin hit 11 more HRs, had an OPS+ of 128 to Simmons’ 113, and 3.7 WAR to Bucketfoot’s 3.0.
That leaves Dick Allen. Allen on his game was a batting dynamo and a decent baserunner, but erratic in the field when he wasn’t pretty bad. The comparison to Hornsby is apt in a way, since he was traded three years in a row after having good seasons, at least in part because he was a disruptive element. The truth is, though, that Hornsby was almost the opposite of Allen, a smart-aleck, in-your face egoist, while Allen was basically a simple man, just blunt, outspoken, and thin-skinned. It’s my impression that Allen, despite reaching the big leagues well after they were integrated, was the most impacted on by racism of all the black stars of the time except Jackie Robinson, and Jackie had the temperament to handle it.
Nice encapsulation.
I’m starting to be persuaded by your argument against Nettles. While his 68 WAR on the surface looks like borderline COG, it came in 2700 games, which is a lot more than most players compile in a career. Yes, Nettles is one of only seven primary third basemen (75% of PAs) with 100 Rfield and 100 Rbat, but adding the two together leaves Nettles with easily the lowest result of that group that includes Buddy Bell and Robin Ventura among non-COGers (also Scott Rolen who is not yet eligible).
Possibly Nettles’ best comp is his contemporary Buddy Bell who finished with 66 WAR, but in about 300 fewer games. And, Scott Rolen ‘s 70 WAR came in over 600 fewer games than Nettles. I don’t see Bell as a COGer, so probably shouldn’t be looking to Nettles either. Probably going to change my vote.
Doug – I’m going to push back a bit on Nettles.
1) Most of the “extra” games he played were from ages 41-43, when he played 318 games and put up -0.5 WAR. So perhaps he hung around a bit too long but there’s a reason for that. Which is…
2) He’s one of the few players in baseball history to regularly play 3rd base from ages 38-40. Here’s the full list of players with 300+ games and 90%+ of them being at third from ages 38-40: Nettles, Chipper Jones, Lave Cross. That’s it. And Nettles wasn’t just putting in time during those years. He put up 8.1 WAR from ages 38-40. So he’s got longevity. But what about…
3) Peak? Nettles twice led the AL in WAR something very few players have done and even fewer third basemen.
4) It seems like we’re making the same mistake as the HOF voters, and overlooking third basemen because many of them didn’t have an outstanding skill and instead were balanced between offense and defense.
5) Yes it’s hard to differentiate Nettles from Bell, Boyer, Bando etc but both JAWS and the Hall of Stats ranks him ahead of all the them. In fact, of the third basemen that we’ve considered, they both rank him 7th all-time. 7th! I doubt there’s any other position where we’ve overlooked a guy who ranks both 7th in JAWS and the Hall of Stats. (JAWS includes Paul Molitor and Edgar Martinez as third baseman but for obvious reasons, I’m not including them there).
Fair point. David.
If the extra PA didn’t enhance his WAR, then doesn’t make sense to be penalized for them. One could argue that, by not making positive contributions at the end of his career, Nettles was hurting his teams by occupying a lineup spot. But, to me, that’s not on Nettles – it’s the team’s fault for running him out here for all those games.
no statistician, these are great – these borderline cases are rough. I really appreciate the summary of Goslin’s case, because I can see “Worthy Hall-of-Famer” but have never though that he passes my COG test, and for all of Goslin’s steady COG support there hasn’t been much discussion. I did vote for Simmons, and Goslin is pretty similar. Now I’m not as sure about Simmons, and although I don’t think I’ll vote for Goslin I can see that he’s closer than I thought.
Lately I’ve been wondering about Nettles (who I’ve voted for several times), especially with the “third baseman membership gap” about to close a bit… and that’s with Rolen on the distant horizon, too (1975). I’d never thought about the Rogers Hornsby parallel for Dick Allen (without Allen being anywhere near the inner circle that Hornsby’s in).
Thanks for these excellent thoughts, nsb. The analysis of Goslin is particularly helpful, but the comment I want to make is about Allen.
I’ve never been a fan of Allen, having lived through his era and all the headlines that built his bad reputation. But during the CoG process I’ve come to three conclusions: he was an even better hitter than I remembered, his fielding was undermined by bad managing, and precisely your last point – his behavior has to be understood in a racially volatile context.
On the fielding point, I’ve always been puzzled to see that Allen came up as a third baseman, and wondered how a native third baseman, even a bad one, could be such a poor fielding outfielder. I only recently learned that Gene Mauch installed Allen at Third as a rookie in ’64 despite the fact that Allen had had no experience there, Mauch simply needed a third baseman and saw Allen as a good fielder. And, according to advanced stats, he was a good fielder in 1964: although he’d never played third, he has positive dWAR that season. But no one knew: he made lots of errors – 41 – so many that his “poor fielding” was a big storyline, and in subsequent years, he was no longer actually a good fielder, either at third or when in ’68 he was finally moved back to the outfield, where he’d had minor league experience.
I suspect Allen’s career-long fielding problem was a self-fulfilling prophecy: having been booed as a bad fielder from the start of his career, when he was not, he was probably convinced he was one, and always uneasy in the field. He was booed a lot. This fits in with the more general point about his treatment in Philadelphia, which had been a city notorious for really nasty fans (ask Del Ennis) and for its racist response to Jackie Robinson seventeen years earlier. Allen asked that the Phillies stop calling him by what he told them he heard as an infantilizing name right from his first year, but they persisted nevertheless – what was up with that? I remember the press attacking Allen for demanding that they “change” his name (and I bought their idea that he was acting like a prima donna). His name had always been Dick and was still Dick – I’m sure he felt the Phillies and press were calling him “Boy.”
There’s a lot more to go into on the issue of how Allen’s treatment and the issue of racism dovetailed through Allen’s career – sometimes he seems thin-skinned, but in the larger context he seems to me justifiably resentful. Teammate after teammate has testified that Allen was good to have on the team, in the clubhouse, and as a friend: his troubles seem chiefly to have been with management, the press, and that jerk Frank Thomas (the first one – whom I idolized as a ’62 Mets fan – not The Big Hurt).
Well, so far I haven’t gone with Allen – I’m back with Goslin, whom I’ve often voted for in the past, and whom your post is not going to turn me away from. But I’ve moved much more in Allen’s direction, having taken a little of the edge off his fielding mediocrity, and having finally discarded the view of his character and conduct that I formed when I believed everything I read in the papers. Maybe I’ll find a place for him on my ballot before the deadline for changes comes along on Friday (but, you know, I really like Ashburn too; remember the ’62 Mets!).
NSB, I’ll repeat here a few on the thoughts on Ferrell that were discussed when we were doing this a year ago.
His 8-year peak, from 1929-1936:
49.2 Pitching WAR, while averaging 20 Wins.
None of his peripheral numbers are pretty, because he played in the most offensive era in history, with Boston and Cleveland as his home parks (105.6 park-factor during that stretch).
Sandy Koufax, in his best 8 years, put up 50.2 WAR
(yes, Sandy’s postseason play factors in.)
Looking at other pitchers of his era, here are the WAR leaders from 1925-1945:
109.9 . Lefty Grove
67.8 … Hubbell
66.8 … Lyons
54.5 … Ruffing
53.1 … Bridges
48.8 … Ferrell
47.6 … Harder
Ferrell had just 2600+ IP, easily the fewest of the guys on this list.
Which is good and bad for our purposes.
Good, because it shows he was super-valuable.
Bad, because he didn’t have longevity.
_______________
Which brings us to the issue of his batting.
12.7 WAR for his career.
An OPS+ of 100 in 1327 PA.
Here are the leaders in OPS+ by Pitchers, 1925-1945, minimum 500 PA:
100 . Ferrell
91 … Schoolboy Rowe
83 … Jim Tobin
83 … Red Ruffing
80 … George Uhle
71 … Bucky Walters
64 … Joe Shaute
62 … Johnny Marcum
59 … Dizzy Trout
55 … Joe Bowman
There was nobody in his league.
And therein lies the argument.
61.5 total WAR is borderline, yes.
But how he got created that value makes him a special case.
He was arguably the 2nd best pitcher in the AL, while contributing at the bat like nobody else in the 9-hole.
His teams were working with 9-man lineups. Everybody else had 8.
Here is his OPS from 1929-1936, compared to that of the cumulative AL Pitchers (which includes his stats):
.670
.529 (for 1929, stats only available for all 9-hitters)
.777
.547 (now this is Pitchers)
.994
.507
.635
.486
.834
.482
.828
.462
.960
.472
.773
.492
_____
Here are the OPS+ leaders all-time, among Pitchers (min 500 PA):
120 .. Doc Crandall
105 .. Reb Russell
100 .. Ferrell
100 .. George Mullin
90 … Jesse Tannehill
88 … Rowe
88 … Al Orth
86 … Claude Hendrix
86 … Uhle
Crandall got over a third of his PA in one season, as an everyday player (2B, P) in the Federal League.
And his swatted a 140+ that year.
Russell got over half his PA after he had converted from P to RF.
As a Pitcher his OPS+ was 56.
One thing to keep in mind about Goslin’s eye-popping numbers in 1930 is that not only was he leaving what was almost certainly the toughest park to hit home runs in the history of the game but he was going to one of the best ball parks for hitters of his era. If you look at the 1921 St. Louis Cardinals (who played in the same park) you get some idea of how good it was: 7 of 8 starters hit .307 or better (6 of them .320 or better) and their top 2 reserves (about 500 PA’s between them) hit .309 & .352 plus they had a 27-year old future HOFer anchoring their pitching staff & 2 other starters with winning %’s over .700 and they still managed to finish 3rd in an 8-team league.
Hartvig, I don’t think the batting average splits for those nine 1921 Cards actually show much of a park effect.
Home Away Player / PA
.376 …….. .262 …….Clemons /381
.339 …….. .347 …….Fournier / 661
.375 …….. .419 …….Hornsby / 674
.311 …….. .303 …….Stock / 672
.324 …….. .377 …….McHenry / 629
.345 …….. .313 …….Smith / 439
.343 …….. .311 …….Mann / 289
.269 …….. .348 …….Schultz / 304
.352 …….. .353 …….Mueller / 193
.337 …….. .337 ……. average
I didn’t get crazy enough to weight these BAs by PAs to get a truer average, but I think if I had, it would still be a wash – my quick back-of-the-head calculation indicates that the Away average would rise above Home average (I couldn’t find an envelope to turn over). Given that stripped of park-feature issues, one would normally expect some slight advantage to exist for batters who are playing at home over those visiting, I think there’s no way to use this group to argue that Sportsman’s Park gave a special edge to batters. (I’m sure there’s an advanced stat somewhere on B-R that gives us a precise measure, used for calculating WAR, etc.)
In 1930, the Browns were sixth in OPS and seventh in OPS+; the Cards were second and third. This suggests that in that year, Sportsman’s Park was a hitter’s park, but perhaps not dramatically so.
Tiant Ashburn Goslin
Goslin
Ferrell
Ashburn
Goslin, Ferrell and Brown. Thank you. Missed this site as I have been away a while.
VOTE UPDATE!
Through 19 ballots (let me know if I’ve missed your vote):
=================50% (10)
9 – Wes Ferrell, Goose Goslin
7 – Kevin Brown, Luis Tiant*
5 – Bill Dahlen*, Dave Winfield
=================25% (5)
4 – Richie Ashburn*, Graig Nettles
3 – Dick Allen
2 – Bobby Wallace*
=================10% (2)
1 – Andre Dawson*, Carlos Delgado*
* = on the bubble; all holdovers have received at least one vote each
Just so you know, Doug, when I post these updates, I always wait until there are 11 votes, then 21, then 31, etc. That way, you can really see if a guy like Bobby Wallace is “safe.” Because while he WAS safe when you posted this, he is no longer. You (and everyone else who desires to post updates) can do so as you see fit. I just thought I’d share my thought process on when I choose to post them.
Just so you know, Doug, when I post these updates, I always wait until there are 11 votes, then 21, then 31, etc. That way, you can really see if a guy like Bobby Wallace is “safe.” Because while he WAS safe when you posted this, he is no longer. You (and everyone else who desires to post updates) can do so as you see fit. I just thought I’d share my thought process on when I choose to post them.
This must be why they call him Doom.
Good idea, Doom, as Wallace has indeed now dropped below the 10% threshold.
Voting for:
DWinfield
DAllen (RAllen)
GAnderson
Voting for:
DWinfield
DAllen (RAllen)
GAnderson
My computer crashed as I was about to vote a couple hours ago; this should be the same as that vote if it went through.
Glad to see Garret Anderson get a vote. I always really liked him.
I’m sure other people know this already, but his 2003 season has always fascinated me. 49 doubles, 4 triples, and 29 homers – that’s 83 XBH… yet he somehow scored only 80 R. True, he didn’t walk much (only 31 all year), but he did have over 200 hits. And besides, the guy knocked himself in 29 times, then was in scoring position 54 others, and only got knocked in 51 more times. I would imagine that this is the record for most anything (PAs, G, H, XBH, whatever) for most XBH where XBH>R. And this is all for the defending world champs!
Mostly, while I had enjoyed him before, I think I most fell in love with him as a Yankee-killer in the ’02 Division Series. He crushed the Yanks with a homer and two doubles, and as someone who’d really only been following baseball since 1996, I was REALLY sick of the Yankees, who had one every AL pennant but one since I started following.
By the way, the LOWEST-scoring game of that ’02 ALDS was an 8-6 game. 14 runs! 2002 baseball was different, y’all.
Anyway, fun hitter to watch. And he’s still, by the way, the Angels’ all-time leader in more or less every counting stat, some of them by enormous margins. One imagines that, barring some unanticipated player movement, Mike Trout will be shattering all of those. Still, a player I personally really enjoyed. Thanks for giving him the vote and getting me to think about him again!
There are 41 seasons since 1901 of 502 PA and more XBH than runs scored. All but five of these seasons have come since 1976, with three players doing it in 1983, 1993, 1998, 2003, 2007 and 2015. There was only one such season from 1930 to 1975, by the Orioles’ Billy Gardner in 1958.
David Ortiz did it in each of the last three seasons, but none before that. Anderson did it in the 2003 season you noted and also in 1998, with Bengie Molina (2007-08) and Ken Reitz (1979-80) the others to do it more than once.
For the metric you derived of (R – HR) ÷ (XBH – HR), the lowest figure in the group is 0.692 by Nick Castellanos in 2015 (54 XBH, 15 HR, 42 R), and the highest is 0.979 by Garret Anderson in 1998 (63 XBH, 15 HR, 62 R).
more of a strategic vote for “none of the rest of them” than a merit vote.
Ferrell, Goslin, Winfield.
Allen, Ashburn, Goslin
Numbered comments sure would be handy.
Clicking “newest” doesnt bring a comment to the top if it is in response to a previous comment.
I KNOW! It’s driving me absolutely batty. I see that there are new comments since last night… but I’ll have to scroll through the whole thread to find them. Ctrl+f used to be really helpful. In fact, if the comments were just stamped with date and time instead of how long ago,even that wouldn’t be so bad. As it is, I just miss parts of the discussion.
Voomo & Doom, I agree with you. But Andy meant this as a temporary fix, and HHS seems to have lost so many participants during its long time down last fall that I’d rather deal with it than risk knocking the site out again because a more permanent solution was rushed – especially now that we’re launched on a series of threads that are what HHS does best (hat tip to birtlecom – not to ignore that Doom’s MVP threads are bringing up participation too).
I agree 100% about not wanting to risk the site going down again; it’s just that as we have TWO posts where I’m trying to keep track of voting, there’s a lot of scrolling involved – particularly on the COG post, since there are always SO many comments. Of course, lots of comments is a GOOD thing. I’m just lamenting the ease with which things used to work. We’ll just have to learn to deal with the new normal, though, I suppose.
I miss the sidebar that showed recent comments. Now I have to try and remember how many comments a post had the last time I visited the site in order to decide if I need to click on it again.
Perfectly understandable frustration. In the past, I’ve joined in posting vote tallies, and, of course, Doug does that too. I’ll try to track the CoG and post tallies when Doug seems otherwise occupied, and free you up to handle the MVP votes, if that suits you.
One thing I’ve found helpful, if you check the site daily, is to search (Ctrl+F) for the word “minutes”. That will bring you to all the comments posted within the last 24 hours. It will occasionally bring up you to a comment posted “2 days 15 minutes ago”, for example, but otherwise works pretty well. If it’s been more than 24 hours, you can also search for phrases like “1 day”. It’s not perfect, but it helps me find the newer comments quicker when threads like this one get quite long.
I’m going to copy/paste, here, a long comment I made as a response to nsb, because I feel like the (un-numbered) comments in the middle of the thread get overlooked, and I put a dollop of work into this one…
_______________
A few thoughts on Ferrell that were discussed when we were doing this a year ago.
His 8-year peak, from 1929-1936:
49.2 Pitching WAR, while averaging 20 Wins.
None of his peripheral numbers are pretty, because he played in the most offensive era in history, with Boston and Cleveland as his home parks (105.6 park-factor during that stretch).
Sandy Koufax, in his best 8 years, put up 50.2 WAR
(yes, Sandy’s postseason play factors in.)
Looking at other pitchers of his era, here are the WAR leaders from 1925-1945:
109.9 . Lefty Grove
67.8 … Hubbell
66.8 … Lyons
54.5 … Ruffing
53.1 … Bridges
48.8 … Ferrell
47.6 … Harder
Ferrell had just 2600+ IP, easily the fewest of the guys on this list.
Which is good and bad for our purposes.
Good, because it shows he was super-valuable.
Bad, because he didn’t have longevity.
_______________
Which brings us to the issue of his batting.
12.7 WAR for his career.
An OPS+ of 100 in 1327 PA.
Here are the leaders in OPS+ by Pitchers, 1925-1945, minimum 500 PA:
100 . Ferrell
91 … Schoolboy Rowe
83 … Jim Tobin
83 … Red Ruffing
80 … George Uhle
71 … Bucky Walters
64 … Joe Shaute
62 … Johnny Marcum
59 … Dizzy Trout
55 … Joe Bowman
There was nobody in his league.
And therein lies the argument.
61.5 total WAR is borderline, yes.
But how he got created that value makes him a special case.
He was arguably the 2nd best pitcher in the AL, while contributing at the bat like nobody else in the 9-hole.
His teams were working with 9-man lineups. Everybody else had 8.
Here is his OPS from 1929-1936, compared to that of the cumulative AL Pitchers (which includes his stats):
.670
.529 (for 1929, stats only available for all 9-hitters)
.777
.547 (now this is Pitchers)
.994
.507
.635
.486
.834
.482
.828
.462
.960
.472
.773
.492
_____
Here are the OPS+ leaders all-time, among Pitchers (min 500 PA):
120 .. Doc Crandall
105 .. Reb Russell
100 .. Ferrell
100 .. George Mullin
90 … Jesse Tannehill
88 … Rowe
88 … Al Orth
86 … Claude Hendrix
86 … Uhle
Crandall got over a third of his PA in one season, as an everyday player (2B, P) in the Federal League.
And his swatted a 140+ that year.
Russell got over half his PA after he had converted from P to RF.
As a Pitcher his OPS+ was 56.
Reminder that tomorrow (Friday the 27th) is the last day to change your vote, should you wish to do so.
Nettles, Tiant, Winfield
Vote:
Andre Dawson, Luis Tiant, Dick Allen
We’re within twelve hours of the deadline for vote changes, so I thought a vote update would be in order.
With 24 votes in, here are the current totals, as I have them:
=================50% (12)
11 – Goose Goslin
10 – Wes Ferrell
9 – Luis Tiant*
8 – Dave Winfield
7 – Kevin Brown
6 – Dick Allen
=================25% (6)
5 – Bill Dahlen*, Richie Ashburn*, Graig Nettles
=================10% (3)
2 – Bobby Wallace*, Andre Dawson*
1 – Carlos Delgado*, Garret Anderson*
* = on the bubble; all holdovers have received at least one vote each
VOTE UPDATE!
Through 24 ballots (let me know if I’ve missed your vote):
=================50% (12)
11 – Goose Goslin
10 – Wes Ferrell
9 – Luis Tiant*
8 – Dave Winfield
7 – Kevin Brown
6 – Dick Allen
=================25% (6)
5 – Richie Ashburn*, Bill Dahlen*, Graig Nettles
=================10% (3)
2 – Andre Dawson*, Bobby Wallace*
1 – Carlos Delgado*, Garret Anderson*
* = on the bubble; all holdovers have received at least one vote each
Vote change: Tiant, Ferrell, Wallace
(was previously Tiant, Allen, Delgado)
Ferrell’s Koufaxian peak (plus better batting than many defense first infielders) makes him worthy to me… and it would be a shame to lose Wallace.
I will change my vote from Dahlen, Wallace, Nettles to Dahlen, Wallace, Ferrell.
Well, it’s been awhile since I dusted off my COG spreadsheet, and in the analysis that I’ve used, my top guys on the ballot are as follows: Brown, Wallace, Tiant, Ferrell, Nettles. I’ve changed my mind about Brown and can no longer go ‘stats only’ on him. I’ve always been a booster of Ferrell for his uniqueness and general underratedness over history, so I’m happy to put him onto my ballot (and happy that he seems to be doing well this round!)
Wallace
Tiant
Ferrell
New voter!
Darn, these are tough decisions. Who made up these infernal rules, anyway? Oh, yes, well, as many Congressmen have learned, it’s often easier to wite the rules than abide by them.
My vote:
–Bobby Wallace
–Bill Dahlen
–Luis Tiant
I’ll defer to Doug on the official vote tally, but it looks to me as though Ferrell will be our latest CoG inductee.
This is the third round in a row where the leader going into the home stretch was overtaken – the second time in a row that the leader was Goslin. Last time, it was Wilhelm who overtook the Goose, Hoyt himself having been overtaken by Waddell the round before. But it may be tougher for the Goose to rebound than it was for Hoyt, given the profile of the two remaining 1972 rounds to come.
I would not have bet that Ferrell would have pulled this round out. Compare the vote totals of the eleven holdovers from the last round and this one — last round, there were 42 voters vs. 26 this round (126 votes, compared to 78), thirty votes going to players other than these eleven in Round 121.
CoG Round 121 [only the 11 current holdover candidates]:
17 – Goose Goslin
15 – Dave Winfield
11 – Kevin Brown
10 – Wes Ferrell
8 – Dick Allen
7 – Richie Ashburn, Luis Tiant
6 – Graig Nettles
5 – Bill Dahlen, Bobby Wallace, Andre Dawson
CoG Round 122 (1972/1) – at least, the totals as I see them (leaving off Anderson’s lone vote):
13 – Wes Ferrell
11 – Goose Goslin, Luis Tiant
8 – Dave Winfield
7 – Kevin Brown
6 – Bill Dahlen
5 – Dick Allen, Richie Ashburn, Bobby Wallace
4 – Graig Nettles
2 – Andre Dawson
I guess a year makes a difference.
My impression is that over the long haul, Hartvig was the poster who established the case for Ferrell and led to growing support at a time when Ferrell was, i think, teetering on the bubble, and Voomo’s repeated post this round probably gave Ferrell a timely boost (or a two-timely boost) towards the close.
Assuming the count is correct, 50% is at 13 votes, 25% is at 7 votes, 10% is at 3 votes.
To give credit where it is due, as I recall it was mosc who brought me on board the Ferrell band wagon- not that it was a particularly difficult sell.
I think it would be a fascinating study to look at voting patterns over the course of this whole process to see how often the #2 guy in total votes on the hold over list got in vs someone a little lower down. I don’t have a link to the running vote tallies at hand any longer but as I recall there were multiple times that my memory tells me that someone did well- I can’t say for sure it was as high as 2nd in the voting- in one election but then when people ahead of them eventually got voted in didn’t move up in the vote totals, instead being surpassed by someone who had been behind them. I’m pretty sure than something along those lines happened to Keven Brown and possibly Ralph Kiner and maybe some others who eventually got in to the COG (Koufax, Ryan, Killebrew???)